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Built to last, or: How long can we benefit from our training?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

If you'd have limited time for training, what's the most important skill you'd want to develop?

  • Tolerance to hypercapnia and hypoxia

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • Relaxation

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Technique

    Votes: 4 21.1%
  • Dive reflex

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Physiological adaptations (muscle, flexibility, etc.)

    Votes: 1 5.3%

  • Total voters
    19

HydroApprentice

Well-Known Member
Mar 17, 2014
171
52
68
Hi everyone, there's something which was keeping my mind pretty occupied lately. The winter break is coming to an end, diving season starts and the question arises how much air is still left in tank, so to speak. In the past, it often amazed me how much diving capacity was left after long breaks of diving, and this made me wonder about our general approach to training.
I'd like to ask you to share your experiences and opinions, about which training effects are persistent, which are only temporary, and which time frames we're talking about.

Technically, as freedivers, we have to work on the following 4 things:

1. Tolerance to hypercapnia and hypoxia
2. Relaxation
3. Technique
4. Physiological adaptation: Muscles (e.g. for finning), dive reflex, chest flexibility, equilibration etc.

(sure I forgot something... )

A lot of people stress the importance of CO2 tolerance and the ability to withstand hypoxia. According to the common opinion, these factors are temporary, and the capacity we build up, will decline eventually.

Learning a technique thoroughly, on the other hand, may benefit your diving for a longer time as learning and forgetting takes a while.

Question is, how long can we benefit from different types of training, which skills should be developed early on, which skills have to be trained on-demand when pushing the envelope? How long to build a skill, how long will it last? Which priorities would you set if you'd have to chose? What is the one thing which is THE essential skill for your type or personal style of diving?

Lots of basic questions, I'm really looking forward to hear about your experiences!
 
Last edited:
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This was essentially the question I was trying to get answered in another thread knowing that it is dependent on a number of factors (training for exploration and fun vs static vs spearing, etc.). I've got about a month and a half with only about 3 hours/week to train before a trip I'm taking. Normally there's a number of various things I do, but I just don't have anywhere near the time so I've got to pick whatever is the most effective training for such a small window. Right now, based on my current level of fitness (or rather non-fitness after this winter), I'm thinking that focusing on relaxation in the water along with efficient fin strokes is going to be my best bet along with a bit of mild cardio and then filling in whatever remains with getting acquainted to higher CO2 again (which I absolutely SUCK at). Unfortunately, I'm really shooting from the hip on this one so I'm not sure if I've chosen wisely or not.

I'll be very interested to hear what any others have to say.
 
Personally, I've a hard time to judge whether CO2/O2 training really have such a big effect on my diving. Being lazy to a certain extent, I always ask myself how I can be more efficient. My preference is to focus on technique, as this is something which will benefit me on the long run.
Always when I start after a break, I've the impression that it's a good technique which makes the difference in the water. "Getting in the groove", and getting the relaxation straight is the next thing. But here I've the impression that this kind of comes by itself.
What remains is CO2 or O2 training... And here I'm starting to doubt about the real importance... Call me a heretic, and flog me naked through the streets, but I've the impression that this is only of minor importance for recreational freediving. *duck'n'cover* (OK, we might have different ideas about the term recreational... Does +/- 20 m and dive times between 1-2 min sound like the right ballpark?")
CO2 tolerance is a great thing, and I loved to see the progress in DYN. But I always had a hard time to get a good grip on understanding it, and quantifying the training effects. I could never say how much progress I made in DYN or STA, due to CO2 tolerance, since it's also directly tied to relaxation (and technique if applicable). Basically, I have no idea how long it'd take me to build up a good CO2 tolerance, and how long that effect would last... And I'm also pretty sure that I haven't broken into the territory, where I can start even talking about hypoxic tolerance... So any kind of input here is highly appreciated [emoji4]
 
Personally, I've a hard time to judge whether CO2/O2 training really have such a big effect on my diving. Being lazy to a certain extent, I always ask myself how I can be more efficient. My preference is to focus on technique, as this is something which will benefit me on the long run.
Always when I start after a break, I've the impression that it's a good technique which makes the difference in the water. "Getting in the groove", and getting the relaxation straight is the next thing. But here I've the impression that this kind of comes by itself.
What remains is CO2 or O2 training... And here I'm starting to doubt about the real importance... Call me a heretic, and flog me naked through the streets, but I've the impression that this is only of minor importance for recreational freediving. *duck'n'cover* (OK, we might have different ideas about the term recreational... Does +/- 20 m and dive times between 1-2 min sound like the right ballpark?")
CO2 tolerance is a great thing, and I loved to see the progress in DYN. But I always had a hard time to get a good grip on understanding it, and quantifying the training effects. I could never say how much progress I made in DYN or STA, due to CO2 tolerance, since it's also directly tied to relaxation (and technique if applicable). Basically, I have no idea how long it'd take me to build up a good CO2 tolerance, and how long that effect would last... And I'm also pretty sure that I haven't broken into the territory, where I can start even talking about hypoxic tolerance... So any kind of input here is highly appreciated [emoji4]


You sound a tremendously lot like myself. I'm definitely a recreational guy, there isn't a competitive bone in my body (beyond competition with myself). My dives are pretty much always in 15-20m range as where I dive, you need to swim further out with a flag and all that which I find to be more frustrating than fun. For time, my dives are pretty much always in the 1-2 min range. I never dive past the easy stage as I'm just too lazy and don't find the reward of extra bottom time worth the discomfort. Plus, I've never had the opportunity to push myself to know where my limits are and figure that staying within my easy phase is the safest way to approach this. If I lived near the ocean, I would definitely spear, but since that isn't an option, I dive for fun and because I've found I get far more time in the water and move much faster and quieter than with scuba.

Having said all that, I just can't bring myself to bother with tables. I know quite a few divers on here also haven't bothered with it, but perhaps their propensity to spend more time in the water year round makes up for that. . .? Nonetheless, there's just only so much time for training and tables seem like the bottom of the list. Not that they don't have merit, but that I make much more progress learning to relax and getting technique right than to just learn to cope with the breath-hold more. I have a theory that CO2 tolerance is a bit of misnomer. When I read about it, the initial impression I'm left with leads me to believe that people are capable of not feeling it as intensely. . .like a tolerance for hot peppers where you've lost some of the sensation to milder heat (a physical change, not a mental one). I'm starting to think that it is in fact, nothing more than being accustomed to the feeling more and not fighting the awfulness so much. This is somewhat similar to martial arts where you develop a "tolerance" to being hit. It's not that it doesn't hurt as much as when you started, it's just that you don't notice it and focus on it so much anymore. You shove it out of your mind and press on (a mental change rather than a physical one). I asked a question about that on here a year or two ago and never got much of a response, so anyone with a thought on that, please chime in!

Otherwise, I've been equally baffled at what has increased my dive times. Is it that I've actually gotten used to a bit higher CO2 or is that I've learned to relax more and don't produce as much of it over the same time period. . .or a little bit of both? If I could ever figure out which was the real driver in increasing my DYN, I'd finally know what to focus on. As is, it feels like I have to take a shotgun approach and do a little of this and a little of that to make sure that at least one of those techniques actually helps me.

As for hypoxic tolerance. Ha! I could only dream. I just can't last long into the struggle phase to even remotely approach a need for that.


Before I forget, let me tell you the singularly biggest help I've ever had. Last year I bought a pulse oximeter so that I could see how much oxygen I had left when I felt like I was really struggling. My thought was that being able to confirm that I still had plenty of O2 would help my mental-state. Did it ever. It's surprisingly hard to move the needle on one of those while resting. It takes quite a while of struggling before it starts to drop more than 2-3%. I got tired of messing around with relaxing and breathing and all that when all I really wanted was to get deeper into the discomfort and see how long it took to get the O2 down further. So what I did was to go down to a local soccer field (two fields side by side and walk both their widths and back. I walked out to the field and just took about 3 minutes to collect myself and get the oximeter on, pull out a timer, and get ready to take notes. I didn't do any sort of breathe-up or prep otherwise. Just started. Here's what I found:

1st attempt:
Full lung- 154 yds.
Contractions at 0:39 (around 58-62yds)
Vasoconstriction at 0:43
Total walk time: 1:49
O2 reading at end about 84%
Quite lactic feeling in legs.

Waited approximately 5-8 minutes between attempts

2nd attempt:
Full lung- 154-156yds.
Contractions at 0:42.
Vasoconstriction at 0:50
Total walk time: 1:40.
O2 reading at end about 83%
Very lactic in legs. . .like I had just sprinted the entire distance a couple times.
Note: Urge to breathe diminished noticeably at start of final 3rd of this walk. . around 102 yds, but regained its intensity around 15-20yds from the end.

Those aren't much for numbers, but a prolonged hold wasn't what I was after. Struggling was (hence no prep for the walk, no relaxation, no stretching, breathups, etc). Honestly, I was so surprised that despite being in real agony for a minute, my O2 was still significantly higher than I ever dreamed it would be. That bit of information really freed my mind from concern and in subsequent pool sessions really helped delay the struggle phase as well as make the onset much gentler. I added 25m instantly to both my DYN and DNF without any extra work or struggle to do it . .it was just instantly and always there. Anyhow, just thought I'd throw that out there for what it's worth.
 
That bit of information really freed my mind from concern and in subsequent pool sessions really helped delay the struggle phase as well as make the onset much gentler. I added 25m instantly to both my DYN and DNF without any extra work or struggle to do it . .it was just instantly and always there. Anyhow, just thought I'd throw that out there for what it's worth.

That's exactly what I'm talking about! I've the same impression that lot of the potential is "just there", and your comparison with the tolerance to pepper also pretty much nails my gut feeling.
And yeah, we sound pretty much alike [emoji1] I also couldn't be bothered with tables anymore, and struggle and discomfort is also off the menu. I just love to dive.

So how do the tables come into play? How much do they add, how long do they last?
 
I wish I knew regarding the tables, but I just can't bring myself to mess with them. I've read a lot of forums where people say that helped a lot, but the vast majority of them profess to be beginners where it's easy to make big gains. Who knows if the tables really offered anything over simply practicing?

I read this once from SimpleJ and think I may give it a shot this week just to see how it goes (I just don't have time to do full CO2 tables otherwise):
"While on freediving course, we did an interesting excercise I haven't read about elsewhere. Relax and breath for 3-4 minutes, then breath hold for 1 minute. After that fully exhale and inhale only once. Again hold for 1 minute. That was repeated about 8 times with the last being maximum hold. It was interesting because due to exhale/inhale you had enough oxygen in your lungs and blood, but still lot of CO2 due to the breath hold. I found this much more effective than doing pure CO2 tables."
 
Check out this thread. Eric Fattah and Trux address CO2 tables, physiological vs mental changes, and potential duration of physiological changes:
https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/co2-tolerance.86625/

It would seem then that if CO2 tables predominately create mental change, that the effects should last about as long as the strength of the memory attached to it. I can say that this has been my more recent experience. I mentioned playing with the oximeter last year. Well, I haven't trained, done a breath hold or anything since June of last year. This past Monday I went to the pool for the first time and after working out, promptly did the same distances I managed last year following my experimentation with no perceived extra effort. It's like I picked up right where I left off. . . which follows if the majority of my gains were all mental.
 
If I only could find it again. I know about at least one specific study, and was searching the original reference already once, but cannot locate it. However, besides others, the study has tested several groups of subjects, including non-divers and elite freedivers (if I remember well the original source, Tom Sietas was one of them), slowly increasing the level of CO2 in the inhaled air. The breaking point was practically identical at all groups. Some later discussion (not the original one) about it can be found in this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-science/82096-freediving-leading-sleep-apnea.html

There are also some reasonable arguments against it, and that's why I wrote that I am not sure whether the studies are right or not.

However, I think it is apparent that the increase of the breath-hold time by one minute after a single week of training cannot be attributed to physiological adaptation, and certainly has nothing to do with hematocrit increase.

Another argument supporting the theory that the "CO2 tolerance" is to large extent mental, is the fact that if an experienced freediver comes back to training after a long period of rest (meaning several months or years), he will be often able holding the same time at the first try, as he did in the peak of his previous diving career. I experienced this with several friends, club colleagues, and even myself - I've been apneist and UW rugby player in the 80's, and came back to freediving 20 years later, where at the very first training I equaled my old PB rather easily. If I ever had any physiological adaptation in the 80's it was certainly long gone by then.

And finally the studies about blunted response to hypercapnia observed at divers (not only freedivers) support rather the theory that it is more a learned reaction than physiological adaptation. Some of the studies I reviewed about this topic compared groups of non-divers and divers with diverse level of experience, and although there were differences between non-divers and divers, they did not find any significant differences among the divers with different level of diving experience.

Thanks a lot Triton, this is veeeery interesting stuff!
 
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Training response and duration of effect is something that we can assume is determined in part by genetics. While freediving specfic studies are thin there have been numerous studies of elite athletes engaged in altitude training (hypoxia), and there was a great deal of variance when it comes to change in hematocrit--some people responded slowly, some quickly and dramatically, and some barely at all. Once leaving altitude there were also big differences in how long increased hematocrit persisted. In some individuals fall off was within a few days and in others it lingered for a few weeks. See Tibetan and Andean studies also--the mutations in those populations are less common in general population but present and spanning the gamut of hypoxic adaptation.

O2 sat meter can be useful of gauging hematocrit in a very broad sense. If you are someone whose blood responds to apnea you would see a difference at the end of say 4 min dry static when done in highly trained or untrained state. Diet plays a role as well.

As far as correlation between hematocrit and CO2 tolerance, any serious regular CO2 training is going also increase hematocrit in nearly all divers.
 
So technically, all hematocrit-related training effects should be totally gone within a couple of weeks at max. Does this suggest that we're back to square one after cessation of regular CO2/O2 training for a couple of weeks? Or does this only apply for the top athletes pushing the limits?
When I got you right, hematocrit increase is correlated with apnea training, but is not necessarily a measure of CO2 tolerance. By any chance, have you come across any direct measurements on CO2 tolerance?
I'll try to find a bit of time these days to check a bit of literature, and see if I can contribute to the discussion [emoji4]
 
So technically, all hematocrit-related training effects should be totally gone within a couple of weeks at max. Does this suggest that we're back to square one after cessation of regular CO2/O2 training for a couple of weeks? Or does this only apply for the top athletes pushing the limits?
When I got you right, hematocrit increase is correlated with apnea training, but is not necessarily a measure of CO2 tolerance. By any chance, have you come across any direct measurements on CO2 tolerance?
I'll try to find a bit of time these days to check a bit of literature, and see if I can contribute to the discussion [emoji4]

Never seen any literature on measuring CO2 tolerance; it is only of interest to freedivers, and a hard limit only for a few very very specialized apnea stunts. The physiological limit is also nearly impossible to test since it can be fatal even with medical supervision.

And yes, to my knowledge hematocrit adaptation would not last although there would be variability in speed of falloff.

Muscular adaptations would likely last longer although this would also be likely influenced by genetics, age, and training. No studies come to mind but lifetimes ago when I was a serious comp swimmer it was normal to see differences in how individuals responded to end of season taper. At elite levels you have guys specializing in events to which they are genetically predisposed (ie the milers and 50m only guys being on two ends of the spectrum), and those guys tend to respond to training/detraining differently.
 
I just found a nice article, in which the importance of developing an efficient technique is well explained. I really enjoyed reading it, as most of the things can be directly translated into the freediving setting. The problem is that I'm a bit biased, as I believe that the best investment we can do in our training for the long-term training is a good technique, and getting the relaxation right. However, I'm still looking for the science to back it up ;)


http://www.bettermovement.org/2009/coordination-part-ii/

Since efficiency necessarily implies a minimum of effort, we can recognize efficient movements by their apparent ease. In fact, one of the main impressions you will receive from watching a great athlete or dancer in person is that they make it look so amazingly easy. After I go to a major sporting event I usually leave with the illusion that the sport is actually pretty easy, and that next time I play it I will be near the professional level. Needless to say that does not happen because I don’t have the necessary skills. But the appearance of ease that the pro athlete creates is not an illusion – it is actually easy – for them. If you are very graceful and smooth in your movements, you don’t need to produce very much effort or strain to produce them.

If you look at most sports, a very large percentage of what the athletes are doing is actually so easy for them that they could do it all day long. Imagine a gymnast performing a back flip, or a shortstop fielding a ground ball and firing the ball to first, or a skier slaloming around poles. These are all powerful moves that accomplish a great amount of work, but because of the graceful and coordinated way the movements are executed, the athletes could perform them for hundreds of repetitions without even the slightest trace of injury or fatigue. By contrast, if the movements were performed by a person without a high level of skill, even a person with great fitness, that person would be exhausted or injured after only a few repetitions.

Even in a sport such as running, which does not involve much technical skill, efficient movement is easy to observe. Professional marathon runners have an unbelievably smooth stride and use about 30% less energy to accomplish the same work as an average runner. They are so incredibly fluid that they look like perpetual motion machines, or a ball rolling downhill. They need add only the slightest bit of energy to each stride to keep the ball rolling. By contrast, the average runner doesn’t look very much like a rolling ball – more like a rolling triangle. Their gait looks painful. And it probably is painful.

We can recognize efficient movement in everyday life by its graceful, smooth,relaxed nature. Posture is good posture precisely because it is efficient. Good posture means that all the bones are stacked right on top of one another and this creates the least energy required to maintain verticality. If you are unable to stack your bones efficiently, it is probably more a matter of some muscle failing to relax, or some muscle failing to fire, rather than any muscle being too “weak.”
 
The quote also links to an article on relaxation, which is essentially a motor skill. In my opinion, it's also worthwhile to read:

http://www.bettermovement.org/2008/the-skill-of-relaxation/

That is a fine idea, but it sometimes ignores the equally important flip side of the coordination coin. If coordination means all the right muscles firing at the right time, this also means that any muscles not involved in the movement must relax in the right places at the right speed at the right time. Therefore, any act ofcoordination requires the skill of relaxing the muscles that aren’t essential to the movement. If the non-essential muscles aren’t relaxed, they will cause extraneous movement or tension that interferes in the desired movement and wastes energy.

[...]
Parasitic tension

Relaxation skill is also important to prevent excess muscular tension in everyday life. A person working at a computer needs to move only his fingers and wrists. However, the stress of the work will often cause what Moshe Feldenkrais called parasitic tension – unwanted and unnecessary muscle contraction in many other areas, e.g. the shoulders, neck, or jaw. The ability to keep these muscles relaxed while typing is a skill, and can be developed like any other skill.

Despite the importance of relaxation in physical comfort and performance, most people never think to train it, instead favoring exercises that develop the ability to contract muscles. Some good methods to train relaxation during movement or posture would be the Feldenkrais Method, Z-Health, Alexander Technique, or tai chi. These methods use slow movement to ensure that muscular effort happens with the greatest amount of differentiation, ease and smoothness, and the least possible amount of effort and strain.

Taking off the parking brake

To sum up, consider the analogy of a car. Imagine trying to drive faster with a foot that is so clumsy that it steps on the brake every time it steps on the gas. Not only will you not get anywhere very fast, you will tear up your car in the process. It takes the skill of relaxation and differentiation to ensure that you when you step on the gas you do not also step on the brake. So, next time you train, think about whether time is better spent by flooring it or learning to keep your foot off the brake.
 
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