CAFA vs AIDA CANADA

[efattah]

From Bill's statement, it is clear that each AIDA board member simply read both applications thoroughly, and then submitted their vote. There was no discussion or 'consensus.' There was no 'group decision'.

Thus, it makes no sense to ask 'AIDA as a whole' to explain the 'group decision', because there was no 'group decision', there was just a vote. At best you could query each board member individually and ask them why they voted the way they did. Even the board members do not know who each other voted for.

Similarly, in most countries, you vote for the leader of your country. Why you voted is up to you, but your vote is confidential. There is no 'national consensus'. Each person just votes. Exit polls can sometimes give an idea of who voted for what, and why.

As a further example, in the old days when fluid goggles were not allowed in competitions, AIDA would vote each year on whether they should be allowed. At the time I was manufacturing fluid goggles and I hoped they would be allowed in competitions, but year after year they were voted to be not allowed. I got frustrated. I wanted to ask AIDA why were the goggles 'voted out' each year. But the answer is that there was no group decision, no discussion, no argument. There was just a vote. At best I would have had to ask each person who voted, as to why they chose to not allow the goggles. All I could do was guess as to why -- maybe the goggles were considered too hard to obtain? Too expensive? Making things unfair for those who couldn't get them? I kept guessing and still don't know the answer. I felt strongly that banning innovative equipment would hamper the development of the sport. But there was nothing I could do but wait and hope that one day the goggles would be allowed.

 

[Kars]

Maybe we can see the both applications?

What are the differences between both organisations?

What were the real reasons for creating the new AIDA Canada?


I would expect that those who've voted at the AIDA assembly would be more than willing to voice their reasoning even when equation wasn't favourable to or in line with the inquirer's opinion.

So AIDA assembly members please help us understand the Canadian mystery!

Kars

 

[ggarrett]

Maybe we can see the both applications?

What are the differences between both organisations?

What were the real reasons for creating the new AIDA Canada?


I would expect that those who've voted at the AIDA assembly would be more than willing to voice their reasoning even when equation wasn't favourable to or in line with the inquirer's opinion.

So AIDA assembly members please help us understand the Canadian mystery!

Kars

Kars,
Your questions are right on the money. These simple requests of AIDA would answer everyone's questions. Withholding this information only draws suspicion to the Board. Why won't they share the applications, the differences, and the reasons for creating AIDACan? Good questions.

In peace,
Glen

 

[cebaztian]

AIDA International has not been forthcoming about the reasons for their decision, citing a secret vote amongst the board.
Tom

I believe there are situations where secret votes are beneficial for the work and progress of an organization. In other cases it is just convenient for individuals in an organization. Why the Aida board has adopted the style of the high commission of the roman church I have no idea. In most cases never even bothering to comment their own work.

In the case of Aida and its progression I believe that this kind of secretive behaviour has damaged Aida.

Thats why on numerous occasions over the years I have suggested to have a single person on the board in charge of just one thing PUBLIC RELATIONS.

Even if single boardmembers votes are not displayed, one could tell the result in votes (as one does with assembly votes). A minimum would be to actually explain arguments. But I guess the board claims that would be a workburden it is not ready to take on.
One could then ask: what are the essential work for these (how many are they) 12 people, if not explaining on what basis the organization is developing.

Aida is new, aida is complicated, and changing all the time. Decisions are being taken all the time that shapes the organization. There needs to be constant explaining what "it" is doing and why. And I dont mean general descriptions, actually explaining specific cases (as we know there are lots of).

Sebastian
enthusiastic Aida member since 2000


PS In this case it was a board vote, not an assembly vote

 

[kelp princess]

Thanks Pete for the information.



Can someone explain to me why the new AIDA Canada is needed?
CAFA seems to have done some excellent big things.


Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

hi guys - it would seem to me that a pretty simple question like the one kars is asking (and has asked 3x) without a respectable answer, deserves an answer. it does seem strange to me, when no specific or clearly articulated reason is given, for AIDA to just swoop in on CAFA and give them the boot .

i've got no dog in this race but think transparency is needed - or the innuendo and accusations will persist. nothing is perfect but it seems silly to me to throw out the 'good' in the search for the 'perfect' while losing trust.

btw - merry christmas to everyone - sending holiday cheer to AIDA, CAFA and all DB'ers in general

kp

 

[gbo200]

Dear Freedivers,

Thanks for all the contributions made so far. I think many of the contributions have been very well thought out, positive, and clearly stated. On the other hand, I still don’t quite understand Peter Scott’s (Laminar’s) third post stating he ‘will not participate in a thread that starts with posts like George's’ after he had already posted his AIDA Canada’s press release and a further response to another contributor to the post. I guess we can draw our own conclusions regarding Peter’s motivations for that post, given that he is on the board of AIDA Canada.

I can understand those who think the AIDA Board should step up and explain their votes and reasoning. However, to open up the individual AIDA Board members to criticism for decisions they have made in good faith, would probably be counterproductive in the long term for the organisation. Also I don’t think it is really fair to do so given that there is an alternative remedy available.

For those who are interested, Bill has kindly advised CAFA that there is a route to appeal this decision, by asking for a vote from the AIDA assembly. Bill has also advised CAFA that in doing so, CAFA can request to see the AIDA Canada submission, but has also warned that disclosing the CAFA and AIDA Canada submissions to the entire AIDA Assembly would not be in everyone's interest, and that some of the documents may not be completely correct. I found this a bit disturbing, but have no doubt (as I have read CAFA's submission document) that CAFA has nothing to hide. As such, I have urged the CAFA Board to take this action.

So, perhaps there is a chance that CAFA can still retain its status as Canada’s national body representing Canada to AIDA and its ability to choose the national team.

I stand by my premise that AIDA should not have the power to make this change without giving the existing AIDA affiliate a period to sort out whatever problems have come to light. There should also be a complaints procedure in place for people to voice their concerns to AIDA about their national body. This is just real world common sense.

Sincerely,

gbo200

 

[laminar]

Re: CAFA and AIDA CANADA

Hi everyone,

Forgive me my knee jerk reaction to this thread and its initial posts. I found it difficult not to react to what I had learned of posts to the CAFA list and my previous experiences of discussing similar issues in the past.

There has indeed been a long history with CAFA and I am doing my best not to dwell on the past and give into the us vs. them approach that we, in AIDA Canada, set out to avoid from the beginning.

However, you may understand my frustration to see that a thread was started under the Title "CAFA vs. AIDA Canada," and also that the posts that ensued were full of assumptions to support this antagonistic bias.

The biggest issue that seems to hinder attempts at fruitful discussion on this topic and on others (in the past) is how quickly certain CAFA members make assumptions that mislead and deflect scrutiny from the important issues at hand.

One example from George's most recent post:

I found this a bit disturbing, but have no doubt (as I have read CAFA's submission document) that CAFA has nothing to hide.

George, when you write this, you, as a CAFA member (but not a board member or in any official capacity), certify that since CAFA has nothing to hide (in your opinion), that then must mean that AIDA Canada/International do have something to hide.

What this does is cast doubt on AIDA Canada's position without any basis in fact. As do statements of CAFA's worth and value (from Tom and Glen) that do nothing to acknowledge why many freedivers have chosen a different path and why the AIDA Board voted to assign AIDA Canada as a delegate. This kind of communication style prevents the building of trust to allow for safe discussion of these issues.

The problem with discussing this issue (CAFA's protest of this AIDA International decision) is that those vocal CAFA members posting on this thread are not being transparent, themselves, about all the issues.

CAFA members who have been around know full well why AIDA Canada was formed. The CAFA board knows why we have formed. Interesting how those people are not being up front and clear about those issues with themselves, to CAFA members, and on this forum.

Instead, you put the onus and blame on AIDA Canada and AIDA International without taking responsibility for your own stuff.

Without you being transparent about CAFA's history, there can be no open dialogue in good faith.

The great secret is simply that with AIDA Canada, we wanted to create a freediving community that we feel people would enjoy. That's it. It's in the press release. It's not an attack on CAFA unless you make it so. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand?

It is simply an alternative. Everyone has the freedom to choose one or the other or both.

In this case, it would seem that the majority of Canadian freedivers, from coast to coast, have opted to see what AIDA Canada has to offer.

Those of you who know me from this forum and who have met me in person, consider this: would I involve myself in something like this for petty reasons? Do you really think I would devote so much time and energy on something that would just interfere with my enjoyment of the sport and lifestyle? The answer is no, it would create an inner conflict that would not work for me. This is a labour of love and those of you open to the fruits of AIDA Canada's labours will, I hope, share in the fun in 2009.

For everyone else on the thread, I am happy, like I said before, to talk to you on skype or by email about what is going on, but if this thread keeps going with accusations and misinformation (intentional or otherwise) from Glen, Tom, and George (and also on the CAFA list) it will only hurt CAFA and waste time I could be spending on creating something of value.

Happy Holidays! :friday

Thanks,

Peter Scott
Canadian Freediver
AIDA Canada board member

 

[laminar]

Re: CAFA and AIDA CANADA

Hi Everyone,

Here is the letter we sent to the President of CAFA on December 7th and was posted on December 8th, a few days after the decision for those of you not on the CAFA list:

Dear CAFA members,

We are posting here today to clarify some simple things and ask for your patience in awaiting the debut of AIDA Canada. This is not our forum, hence we have not posted here before nor will we post here again. This is a forum for you as CAFA members.

As a new national with more than 150 members we wish to address some of the concerns you have posted as Canadian freedivers.

Who is AIDA Canada? AIDA Canada started as a group of Canadian freedivers, many of whom are former CAFA members, who had a vision different from CAFA. We chose to embark on a journey to manifest that vision. The AIDA International Executive Board has demonstrated their support of our ambitions and excitement.

What does it mean that AIDA Canada is the Canadian national designate 2009? Simply put, AIDA Canada will have the right to select Team Canada and to vote in the AIDA Assembly.

What does this mean for you? As CAFA members you have a valid AIDA license. We will not require you to join AIDA Canada for any reason. As CAFA members you have the right to apply to Team Canada with any performance done in an AIDA-sanctioned competition. You also have the right to enter into any AIDA Canada-sanctioned event. The selection process for Team Canada will be based on the AIDA international ranking list.

How do I join AIDA Canada? With the launch of our web presence by January 2009, you will find access to membership sign up at AIDA Canada Home. You are welcome to join AIDA Canada although not required to. You will also find details of our vision, membership, initiatives, and competitive and recreational schedules for 2009-10.

The AIDA Canada Board and many of its members are dedicated to growing the sport in Canada and we welcome any and all new members that wish to join us. At the same time, we respect those freedivers that choose to remain CAFA members continuing in their opportunity to represent Canada as they deem best.

AIDA Canada will assume national designation on January 1, 2009. With the launch of its website, many of your questions will be answered. All that you need to do is wait and watch. If, at the end of 2009 you do not feel that we have done a good job in our role as the main national designate, you can exercise your right within CAFA to submit an application to regain the main national designation.

You will find below a press release that has gone out to several freediving forums.

Please, understand that as much as you are proud of your organization, our membership is proud of AIDA Canada and it is their interests that have been our priority. Thank you for your consideration.

Respectfully,

The AIDA Canada Board.

 

[efattah]

I find it hard to understand why people are so focused on the past, when what we should be talking about is the future. I have read both applications and they are 100% factual; all facts are supported by appropriate evidence, and there's no point in blaming AIDA for anything.

If CAFA really is a vastly better choice for freedivers, compared to AIDA Canada, then it has nothing to worry about. CAFA will re-apply in late 2009, and be re-voted in as the primary national AIDA.

So what should really be happening is each organization should do its best to promote the sport in Canada, and at the end of each year, AIDA can decide who has done better.

CAFA has its work cut out for itself, as AIDA Canada currently has vast penetration in the East Coast of the country, where CAFA has virtually no presence. In fact AIDA Canada's membership on the East Coast surpasses CAFA's entire membership base. Most CAFA members are unaware that the CASM freedive group in Montreal (now a part of AIDA Canada) has been organizing competitions on the east coast since 2000, with competition attendance that vastly exceeds attendance at CAFA competitions. Freedive Toronto, the 2nd biggest club in Canada, is also part of AIDA Canada.

AIDA Canada has plans to host major international competitions, including the Pacific Rim Invitational on the west coast in 2010. Let's hope CAFA steps up to the plate and organizes their own major international events.

On the recreational front, let's hope that both organizations carry through with vast and elaborate plans to draw in recreational divers and organize monthly 'fun' dive trips.

The presence of two organizations creates healthy competition which will only benefit Canadian freediving. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with giving freedivers two choices instead of just one?

Look forward, not backwards.

 

[kelp princess]

Excellent points Eric - and yes a little healthy competition is sometimes what the sport is all about :t

Peter thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply.

I think that the proliferance of more freediving everywhere and having a range of groups that meet the diverse sets of needs different people have are both good outcomes.

here's to a 2009 full of new PB's for everyone.

cheers,

kp

 

[wes]

I do not see that CAFA or AIDA CANADA has been transparent in this and to me this lack of transparency is what is most controversial.

There are many ways to be transparent on this as follows:

For example neither one posted in public about this controversy until it was almost decided.

Neither one has posted in public their applications.

Neither one has explained why they have not done either of the above.

To be transparent in things is very beneficial I have found and it doesn't mean that one has to tell everything that is going on all the time.

For example if AIDA International has asked CAFA and AIDA Canada to not disclose their applications until after the AIDA International vote then CAFA or AIDA Canada could have issued press release saying that AIDA International has requested we not release the applications until after the vote and we will release them as soon as we are notified of the vote.

In general my opinion to being transparent is being able to answer any questions and especially questions about the reasons things are being done. This is easy if one has thought thru why things are being done and what is being managed for as decisions are being made. It is much harder if the ultimate goals or visions are not clear and decisions are made without clear reasoning behind them. Again this does not mean that the answer to all questions will be what the person asking the question wants. Sometimes the answer would be "this information is being with held and here is why and here is when it will be released and why".

Cheers Wes Lapp

 

[Tom Lightfoot]

Here is a chronology of events on the CAFA side:

October 23 - AIDA International requests proposal from CAFA board to be the 2009 AIDA National
November 8 - CAFA board submits proposal to AIDA International
November 10 - Matt Charlton (CAFA President) informs freedivecanada list about competition between CAFA and AIDA Canada to become Canada's AIDA National
December 7 - AIDA International announces vote result to CAFA board
December 7 - Matt Charlton informs freedivecanada list about vote result
December 8 - Matt Charlton posts CAFA's proposal to freedivecanada list.

Both CAFA and AIDA Canada are accountable to their membership, the general Canadian freediving community and to AIDA International. As all posts to the freedivecanada email list make it to all three, I would say that CAFA has been reasonably transparent in this process.

I will seek the board's permission to post CAFA's AIDA National proposal on the freedivecanada website so that the international freediving community can also see it.

So far the AIDA Canada president has refused all requests from the CAFA board or myself to see their proposal.

Tom Lightfoot
Freedive Canada - Home

 

[wes]

Tom,

Thanks for that very transparent post. I didn't realize the time was so short between the initial notification and the AIDA International vote, I guess I had assumed CAFA had been working on it for a longer period.

I think 2009 and 2010 will be a very exciting time for freediving in North America and look forward to supporting CAFA and their comps that I have enjoyed so much in the past.

Cheers Wes Lapp

 

[Tom Lightfoot]

CAFA's proposal document

As promised, here is a link to CAFA's proposal to AIDA International to retain its status as AIDA National for 2009:

http://www.freedivecanada.com/admin/CAFA_AIDA_National_2008.pdf

Tom

 

[VaclavH]

I find it hard to understand why people are so focused on the past, when what we should be talking about is the future. I have read both applications and they are 100% factual; all facts are supported by appropriate evidence, and there's no point in blaming AIDA for anything.

.

But you have read both applications which gives you the inside point of view.
And that is what many CAFA members are asking for. To have a chance to read it.
Vaclav

 

[gbo200]

Dear Freedivers,

I trust you have all had a good holiday period. I received a dive knife and stringer from my office as a Christmas present so it was good for me! However the highlight was seeing my daughter's face when she got her first bike on Christmas morning. What a treasure!

Anyhow, back to matters at hand...

Thanks to everyone for their continued postings and interest in this issue. It proves to me that my concerns are not unfounded.

First to Peter:

"George, when you write this, you, as a CAFA member (but not a board member or in any official capacity), certify that since CAFA has nothing to hide (in your opinion), that then must mean that AIDA Canada/International do have something to hide.

What this does is cast doubt on AIDA Canada's position without any basis in fact. As do statements of CAFA's worth and value (from Tom and Glen) that do nothing to acknowledge why many freedivers have chosen a different path and why the AIDA Board voted to assign AIDA Canada as a delegate. This kind of communication style prevents the building of trust to allow for safe discussion of these issues."

Sorry Peter, when I write CAFA has nothing to hide, does not mean I am certifying that AIDA Canada do. Those are your words, not mine. The two events are not collectively exhaustive. Therefore the rest of your quote above is somewhat irrelevant. This issue is complicated and difficult enough without you imagining issues to argue about.

New news:

Although it is early in 2009, I am diappointed to see that the body representing Canada to AIDA still does not yet have thier website up and running. It makes me wonder how much they really want to represent Canada if they can not even deliver on this simple task. Peter as a board member of AIDA Canada said it would be up 1 January, so where is it? If you want to build trust, you have to earn it through delivery.

I would still like to see AIDA Canada's submission to AIDA International. As it seems they won because of thier large membership base, I am particularly interested to see the membership listing.

CAFA is due to have a general election around the end of January. So hopefully the new executive will be able to pull the organisation together and increase membership.

I stand by my premise that AIDA should not have had the power to make this change without giving the existing AIDA affiliate a period to sort out whatever problems have come to light. There should also be a complaints procedure in place for people to voice their concerns to AIDA about their national body. This is just real world common sense.


Sincerely,

gbo200

 

[gbo200]

Snore!!!!!

There is still no AIDA Canada website up as of 19 January. If I wanted to join, could I? How is this organisation promoting freediving in Canada?

AIDA Canada Home

I can't believe it!

gbo200

 

[ggarrett]

Snore!!!!!

There is still no AIDA Canada website up as of 19 January. If I wanted to join, could I? How is this organisation promoting freediving in Canada?

AIDA Canada Home

I can't believe it!

gbo200

It's up now.
AIDA Canada Home

In peace,
Glen

 

[Nikkey]

gbo200,
Being that you were a founding memeber of CAFA I would think that you would understand sometimes things hit bumps in the road or kinks when you are starting up something new, that is my guess to the delayed website premier.
Regardless though I really don't think a discussion trying to pit CAFA and AIDA Canada against one another has any benefit for freediving in Canada. I also would not call it good promotion for the sport here either. We live in a large country that has room for two organizations. You can't make everyone happy all the time and these two organizations are taking different approaches, I personally think that does benefit Canadian freediving. There is no reason this has to split the community or become a competition.