California Sheepshead VS Blueh2Oboy

[Chiledog]

Phil thanks for the expansion on your thought stream. I commend your sence of conservation for a species that by your description is pressured in your area. I understand your reluctance to become part of the element exerting pressure in it's recovery to levels you would like to see. Without looking at it deeply I can not comment into what activities are responsible before or currently leading to it's current state. I would venture to speculate that even if spearfishing represents a considerable amount of pressure it probably pales in comparison to what other uses (commercialization ie trapping etc) have or continue to have on the species. Your states DNR or other organization managing that resource are working on your behalf (the citizens of California) to manage it in ways that should bring you and all the highest level of utility. If not you should raise your concerns with the public and in turn with them (the dnr) to attain the same. On another point while we would all love to travel to exotic places to chase pelagics it may not be in the cards for us all. Sometimes the best anyone can do is save 2-3 days a month to get wet and we do what we can when we can. The person escaping from work a few hours ealy, the person saving his vacation time, the person on a shore dive and countless others I am sure have as much if not more passion for our pastime than the next guy. If one stays within both your legal limits and also your own limit of when you feel you have enough you can hold your head up high and be confident that something good has occured as a result of the persuit of your passion. The proof that the thread starter though of it along these lines is that they saw fit to share the experience with friends in a public forum. I say kudos to them and good luck to you and all in making spearfishing all you want it to be now and in the future.

 

[WsbHunter]

. For instance, the legal limit for white sea bass is three per day most of the year, but I don't take three fish even if I can. Hell, I may let fish pass by without a shot if I got a big one the previous week. But I heard of a hero who took three fish over 50 pounds in one day this year. He was within his legal rights, but that is a hell of a lot of fish to eat when you can't sell them. Of course he has bragging rights and can tell his buddies how much of a stud he is, but I feel better being a bit more conservative. The fact that the law permits something does not make it the most responsible thing to do.

Bill, i know you're not trying to say that I sell fish............ I only had a chance to spear about 6 or 7 WSB this year, since I was busy with school, so I couldnt dive PV much at all. That day there was plenty of fish to be speared, and there is NO WAY i put in ANY WAY a dent in the popultaion of those fish. My family and friends took care of all that fish in about 2 weeks, GONE, every darn bit!!

I was trying to put Cameron on one of thse monster WSB, but they didnt show up.
Not that i need to explain why we shot the sheephead, but I actually enjoy eating these guys, and the crew on Cam's ship appreciated every bite of it.
Personally, you know I dive competitions where we shoot these fish, and I do need to stay sharp on my skillz, or lack thereof.
SO, after having pneumonia for 3 weeks and having my gills half way dry out, i gladly took cameron to shoot some fish. We didnt run across any WSB, so we went looking for some other fun fish to shoot, and F_U_N it was !!!

I got to shoot a decent sized fish, so did Cameron, i got to feel the line pay out of my reel(one of my favorite things ), and then we ate like kings aferwards. If the WSB would have been home, it would have been the same deal with different fish.
And BTW, at the spot we dove, there was no lack of these fish, we each could have speared a few more..

 

[icarus pacific]

Here's the deal.

Being a CA kinda guy, my position on Sheepheads is to let them go on by. It seems that regardless of my renowned, many and varied attempts at culinary craftsmanship with these fish, the mud on my boots have better flavor and texture. This is particularly true of the larger ones, 8-10 and up. Then again, if it was two weeks to rent due and the freezer was bare, game on! :martial They're under a lot of fishing pressure and sport diver hassle pressure around the Channel Islands but cracking open some urchins and sitting back will net you dinner. Easy mud. mmm.

And on AJ's, Mike had the recipe down cold at the 2nd Keyz Kraze.

And as has been gone over here and other sites again and again, if it's legal and the fish isn't wasted and/or flaunted, fire away.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill, i know you're not trying to say that I sell fish............

You are absolutely right. I don't think you sell fish, and in fact I didn't even mention your name.

 

[PhilLJCA]

Ok this is my last post on the matter...i promise! For those of you who dont know here are some facts about Sheephead (for many of you californians this is old news, all of it can be found on the web). draw your own conclusions! The California Sheephead Semicossyphus Pulcher, a member of the Wrasse Family, is sequentially hermaphroditic (they change sex during their life cycle). Female fish become male at about 8 years old, we dont exactly know when they become "supermales" but they must be pretty old by that point. The most effective breeding males are the larger, older "supermales" which tend to establish something like a harem. Sheephead inhabit relatively shallow water (10-300 ft with most at less than 50 ft) and are benthic which means they tend to spend their whole life in a very fixed area (sets them apart, by varying degrees, from yellowtail, WSB, corbina, croakers, and even halibut, halfmoons, and many perch). They are more similar to the giant black sea bass in this regard. This means that, although commerical fishing is likely to be a sheepheads worst enemy (especially now that they are an asian delicacy), spearfishing poses a serious threat to them as well. The largest males are also extremely territorial. The stock assesment conducted by UCSC in 2004 (link attached) mentions this threat specifically. sheephead used to grow to over 50 lbs and people used to regularly catch them in the 25-40 lb range. Today the average weight is around a pound and a half. Individuals have been known to reach over 50 years of age, although recently researchers have been unable to find a specimen older than 21 years old. (beginning to sound like a pattern???) The IUSA spearfishing record was taken in 1956 at 35 lbs (funny no one has beaten a record from way back then isnt it?). As i mentioned before, the 2004 stock assessment states that the species is currently at only about 20% of its natural biomass (I believe this means if you were to take all the fish out there today and weigh them, they would weigh about 1/5 what the total population weighed in about 1950). DFG has ahd to close the fishery mid season every year since 2001 because of excessive landings. This data seems consistent with my personal diving experience when comparing southern california diving (places like la jolla or palos verdes) to diving in "semi-remote" (or "once remote") parts of baja (erendira or santo tomas) where i regularly see females the size of the [dead] fish featured at the beginning of this string and males in the 30+ pound range...and its not like the mexicans there dont target these fish either... When the spearo who took the fish in question says that "at the spot we dove, there was no lack of these fish" I dont doubt him; the fact is there used to be a hell of a lot more. Furthermore-and you will read this if you look and the second link i attached--these fish are like the black seabass in that they are gregarious (hang out together) so when you see them, you are likely to see a lot of them. there are many places in their former range where there are none to be found. DFG rules are currently not doing a good job of protecting the species (oddly, they admit this in their report). So my point is very simple: we ought to leave these fish (along with several other species facing similar challenges) alone and let them recover, even if that means sometimes returning home with only memories of a great time on the water and some very good shots taken on a $10 disposible underwater camera. I only became convinced of this relatively recently, and i dont always find it easy to live by (especially since i have limited time, limited income, and limited access and i too love to feel the line play out between my hands). In any event, some of you may have read the same information that I have and come to a very different conclusions, which is perfectly fine...I just wanted to get this out there for those of you who were interested. BTW I THINK ITS REALLY UNFORTUNATE THAT THIS STRING OPENED THE WAY THAT IT DID, BECAUSE MY POINT ISNT PERSONAL. We are all here becuase we have a similar passion and presumably we can learn from eachother. Ive learned a lot from many of you on here, and am glad if i can give something back (conversely theres some real rubbish on here and no doubt some of you consider this to be a prime example). Regardless, I wish this had been a general discussion on killing sheephead (soemthing we all have done) and not on specific people and specific fish...
If anyone is interested in reading the 2004 stock assessment of the California Sheephead here it is:
summary:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/mrd/sheephead2004/pdfs/summary.pdf
longer version:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/mrd/sheephead2004/pdfs/entire.pdf

 

[RabiDeath]

My goodness, what hateration! I guess I would be jealous if I couldn't find fish like B does and couldn't hold my breath for 3min. like Cam. I end up not being on the internet for a few weeks and then I come back and see people messing with my family! This is a new height of nonsense on the internet. I am glad to have met Brandon this year b/c he is the only reason I've convinced God not to let CA fall off into the Pacific. Even if it does, he can always come back to kill fish with the rednecks in FL!

Good on ya' boys.

Steve Polycronopolis...BECAUSE I'M A...

 

[Screen Name]

Bill is sorely missed over at Spearboard, :waterwork I'll tell you that. :blackeye

 

[icarus pacific]

Not here.

Let's focus on the Sheephead, folks and leave the obvious sarcasm to the playground. :ycard

 

[Shaft]

As i mentioned before, the 2004 stock assessment states that the species is currently at only about 20% of its natural biomass (I believe this means if you were to take all the fish out there today and weigh them, they would weigh about 1/5 what the total population weighed in about 1950).

So, name one single gamefish that's at more than 20% of it's "natural" biomass, i.e. - 1950 population levels. They were jig-poling 200-lb yellowfin tuna 1 mile off the coast of Oceanside in 1950. Want to know something that's really taken a hit? California Spiny Lobster. Compare average individual sizes to 1950 landings. That fishery probably needs to be shut down entirely along with White Seabass and Halibut, Calicos, etc, etc, etc. Nothing is at it's 1950 levels, not even Garibaldi, and no-one hunts or fishes for them.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

So, name one single gamefish that's at more than 20% of it's "natural" biomass, i.e. - 1950 population levels. They were jig-poling 200-lb yellowfin tuna 1 mile off the coast of Oceanside in 1950. Want to know something that's really taken a hit? California Spiny Lobster. Compare average individual sizes to 1950 landings. That fishery probably needs to be shut down entirely along with White Seabass and Halibut, Calicos, etc, etc, etc. Nothing is at it's 1950 levels, not even Garibaldi, and no-one hunts or fishes for them.

White sea bass? We are seeing more every year, as well as more big ones every year, since in-shore gill netting was banned, and the rod and reelers are catching more every year. I can so no reason to shut down a fishery when numbers and sizes are increasing.

 

[rigdvr]

personal opinions about what spearos should and shouldnt take are pointless. Stay within your limits as set by law, take what you can use/give to others, have a good time. For those who would like to pass judgement on others personal decisions...join PETA, they also like to dictate right and wrong to law abiding citizens.

 

[rigdvr]

White sea bass? We are seeing more every year, as well as more big ones every year, since in-shore gill netting was banned, and the rod and reelers are catching more every year. I can so no reason to shut down a fishery when numbers and sizes are increasing.

But then you bust someones chops for taking their limit of that so whats your point?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

But then you bust someones chops for taking their limit of that so whats your point?

My personal preference, for me only, is to take less than the limit. But I'm not 20 years old, and had I lived here in similar circumstances of fish availability when I was 20, I might well have wanted to take a limit just to prove I could. After all, I was shooting jewfish in Florida when I was 13, even though I wouldn't choose to do so now,even if it were legal. I just don't have as much to prove at 67, but that is a fairly common condition for the aged if their lives have not been a total disappointment to them, and mine has not.

And while I'm into full disclosure, I once took a limit of three white sea bass myself not long after I got into this. I guess I must have succumbed to the temptation to say that I could do it too. Maybe I had a testosterone surge that day. Its just that I don't do it anymore on the rare occassions when it might be possible for me.

Now in this case, the point which brought forth your challenge was that I didn't think the fishery should be closed since the numbers and sizes were on the increase. Is it really inconsistent to say that we might consider taking fewer than the limit while still saying that the fishery does not need to be closed? If the fishery needs to be closed, it must imply a rather extreme condition. But even if the fishery is not in such dire straights as to require closure, it still might be nice to consider whether we still need three fish over 50 pounds in one day. Maybe we and our friends are in such bad shape that we really need that much fish, but maybe not. And if not, why not at least think about letting the population recover even faster? Its just a suggestion, and I hope suggestions can be considered and accepted or rejected without getting our tits in a wringer.

Anyway, taking a limit is legal. I wish that someone could just offer a different point of view without you feeling challenged or getting mad. I have learned a lot by listening to the opinions of others, and believe it or not, I have actually changed my own practices and opinions now and then. But I am much more amenable to accepting a different POV when the person offering it does not tell me to get bent or suck on a lollipop, as you have done with me.

I don't think a PhD in psychology is required to get that point.

 

[rigdvr]

first of all, watch the language...this is a family friendly site. No need to get this thread locked up again. Why do you feel the need to bring in personal emails we have exchanged as not part of this thread, in fact they took place weeks before this...emails in response to you tracking me down through friends to argue with me...then have the gal to slam people on this thread for bringing stuff to other sites...you contridict yourself at every turn.

Secondly, I have never seen you give an opinion as an opinion of your without trying to demean someone else.

Thirdly, Im not mad, just pointing out that you arent even consistant in your arguments anymore. Why would I be mad over it? You think a little much of yourself to believe that I get angry over what you say Bill. You can have any opinion you want and thats fine...case in point, in this thread alone its your opinion limits of wsb shouldnt be taken. Its also your opinion that the stocks are improving in size and quality...in my opinion, logic says the limits are doing more than producing a sustainable fishery from your accounts.

Your posts dare people to become confontational and personal...something we arent supposed to do on this particular site.

Why are you angry with Bandon? Is it because he beat your personal best 3 times in one day? When people I know shoot good fish, I am happy for them.

 

[rigdvr]

Re: Not here.

Let's focus on the Sheephead, folks and leave the obvious sarcasm to the playground. :ycard

Come on sultan...somebody here isnt playing nice :girlie

 

[icarus pacific]

This thread's on hold.

I'm reminded of the warden in "Cool Hand Luke", while wiping his brow, declaring " What we have here...is failure to communicate". Thing is that there's too much communication here. Or rather too much being read into this.

I see the several points offered here and also agree with most of them, even though they may be different in terms of time and location. One man's dinner is another man's bait.

That said, let's give this a break for a couple and spend some time outside stringing lights or something. Hell, maybe even go diving.

Everyone's understanding and support are appreciated.