California Sheepshead VS Blueh2Oboy

[Erik]

With due respect to all:
I can understand Stretch's frustration even if the reaction is not perfect, but who is perfect out there? (Thank God)
A youthfull, passionate reaction to a much older, more calculated and well-spoken spearo. Who should know better? Stretch sits through acres of Bill's posts that appear polite but somehow tend to elevate tension. So.....
Bill, your wealth of information is always appreciated and I look forward to it, however I wish it did not usually come mixed with the following predictable elements: classic passive-aggressive tone, triangulation of the argument by high praise of another spearo, submissive false self-deprecation of your own abilities, sarcastic justification of your argument by stating your age and years of experience. Plus the most obvious is your love of stirring it up...this thread for example, where a couple of guys tell a story of their love for the sport and typical to form, you jump in some attempt to degrade them....usually by removing yourself as the aggressor.
If someone craps on every thread, then they'll stop telling the stories. I'm all for hearing stories and assume that most of us are, based on the popularity of these kind of threads. Not everyone likes to argue for the sake of arguing, Bill. An important lesson and attractor of freeediving/spearfishing is removal of the ego, si?
Dude, why can't you just enjoy it and let people like you?
Peace,
Erik Y.

 

[Bucket One]

Bucket - the reason I think the amberjacks have worms in North Carolina for nothing else is because on average they're bigger. Friskier smaller fish that move faster have fewer. Having speared my share here in VC, NC,SC, and FL it seems that it's just more prevalent among the bigger fish. I've seen the same worms in big AJ's in the Gulf. I only shoot one or two a year now to take one to the smokehouse before winter and the last one weighed around a 100lbs and I only got 30lbs of clean fillet out of it, almost a waste but what can you do. The cooler water farther north or something that lives in it could also have something to do in promoting the parasite growth. Our big black drum and red drum are the same. That's my take anyway.

Mark,
The worms do tend to be among the larger fish but when I was up in South Carolina a month ago we shot two amberjacks that where about 25 lbs. I needed some to eat. When I filleted them I was amazed to see that the whole fish was full of worms. You know the long white ones that look like pasta. I kinda felt bad because I couldn't do nothing with the meat because it was so infested with the worms. The amberjacks in the gulf have the same ones too. I've filleted more amberjacks then you can shake a stick at and seen thousands cleaned at the fish house and when they do have the worms they always seem to be right around the tail section. Doesn't matter whether it's a 40 pounder or a 100 pounder. The reason that on the average the amberjacks up in your neck of the woods tend to be bigger is IMO you've got hardly any pressure on them and the gulf stream is fairly close to ya'll allowing the bigger jacks to come and go from deep water to shallow water sooner. Your right about the black drums having worms also but they seem to be some other type of worm, kinda like a grub looking deal. I don't know about the redfish though because we're only allowed one up to 27 inches. I know that I've never seen any in one's that size.

Ritchie Zacker

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Wow Erik. You saved me money. I would have had to pay a shrink a lot of money to get the sort of analysis that you provided gratis.

Since this thing seems to go on and one, let me try to put it in simple sentences that make clear my motivation.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have said anything negative about what fish those guys want to shoot. Many other California divers would be a lot more critical about shooting sheepshead, but they aren't here and I shouldn't have tried to speak for them. Bad on me.

This week there have been lots of guys on the California forum of Spearboard mentioning small sheepshead that they have taken. I would never have said a thing about them, even if I could, because they are beginners with little experience, and most beginners start with sheepshead. I understand it. I've even recently taken some guys to places where they could get sheepshead, and I gave another guy directions to that reef I mentioned, where he proudly reported in a PM getting several sheepshead. I congratulated him rather than criticizing him.

Cameron and Brandon are world class spearos, so I was surprised to see them shooting sheepshead. Its as simple as that. Yes, its legal, and they have every right to shoot what they want to shoot, but I was just surprised. I guess I sort of expect most guys with so much skill to pass on what are normally such easy fish to shoot, and in fact most of the highly skilled guys I know never shoot sheepshead, but I shouldn't try to impose my standards on Cameron and Brandon. Bad on me.

The stating of my age was in the context of why I may have lost the lust for shooting any damn thing that I can as I might have done when I was 20 like Brandon. Who knows, maybe Brandon's attitudes will evolve as he ages too, or maybe not.

The self-deprecation of skills was defensive. Without that included, I fully expected to have some one say "so you think you are better than those guys?" At least we got that out of the way, even if I had to trade passive aggressive for acting superior. I'm old, decrepid, and couldn't dive as deep as Brandon or stay down as long even when I was younger. However, my mind has not atrophied so much that I no longer have opinions. But back to where we came in- it would have been better if I had kept them to myself.

As to Stretch's frustration at dealing with someone more well spoken- I wish I could do something to help him express himself without so much rage, but that is beyond my capabilities. I do wish that, if he wants to copy my posts from this board and post them somewhere else, he would post the entire thread so that there was some context and balance, but I know I'm tilting at windmills to expect such fairness. He is simply out to get me any way he can, and that's the way he knows how. Bucket and rigdvr have hardly been my most ardent supporters in the past, but they somehow managed to respond with some civility this time.

I hope this has served to explain where I was coming from. But if I need more analysis, please feel free.

 

[rigdvr]

Wow Erik. You saved me money. I would have had to pay a shrink a lot of money to get the sort of analysis that you provided gratis....


As to Stretch's frustration at dealing with someone more well spoken- I wish I could do something to help him express himself without so much rage, but that is beyond my capabilities. I do wish that, if he wants to copy my posts from this board and post them somewhere else, he would post the entire thread so that there was some context and balance, but I know I'm tilting at windmills to expect such fairness. He is simply out to get me any way he can, and that's the way he knows how. Bucket and rigdvr have hardly been my most ardent supporters in the past, but they somehow managed to respond with some civility this time...

.

This is exactly what Erik was talking about Bill. Make your point without trying to underhandedly b*tchslap someone and I bet people will quit trying to "get you anyway they can". You are well spoken, just like a politician...I prefer the straight up approach.

Stretch, the reason many of us take the high road these days is because the futility of what you are doing...no matter what you say, Bill is set in his ways. Accept it or just ignore him, I've done both You CANT teach an old dog new tricks.

As to the worms, Ive noticed the same thing as bucket...only in the tail. Ive shot AJ's to 75# in the gulf with very little worm action except in the tail...filleted them up to 120 with the same result. Black Drum on the other hand...nasty. What about the worms in speckled trout? Nobody cringes at that...in fact we have a saying for that..."nothing a swim in Lake Crisco cant cure!"

 

[Chiledog]

Cam and Brandon congratulations on your take. The fish you collected are georgeous and the on the water pics I have seen of them are beautiful. I am sure everyone that took part of the meal they provided is grateful for your generosity as are we with whom you share your experiences. I hope to one day make it out to California and take "one of each" including the elusive or not so elusive sheepshead. Sorry that someone just couldn't resist pooping on your parade. While I will admit that I am also occasionally jealous of others exceptional diving and hunting abilities I hope it never drives me to critisize their accomplishments. Take care and Happy Hunting!!

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

Doesn't matter whether it's a 40 pounder or a 100 pounder. The reason that on the average the amberjacks up in your neck of the woods tend to be bigger is IMO you've got hardly any pressure on them and the gulf stream is fairly close to ya'll allowing the bigger jacks to come and go from deep water to shallow water sooner.

Take it from someone whose lived and spearfished here for 15 years and broke 7 world records in the process. The bigger fish have more worms. If you're still not sure call any charter boat in NC and ask them. That's just one reason we don't go out of our way to shoot them and shooting the smaller ones which have fewer worms wouldn't be fun. As you said most are in the tail. Well that's enough talk of worms for me, you can have the last word if you want

You touched on something much more important to me though. The reason the AJ's are thick up here is because they're heavily regulated to one per person per day over 36" I think it is and has been. If it were different and the regs were not as tight head boats and the commercials would obliterate them, but at one fish per person it's not worth their time. I've seen what a head boat in SC can do to an amberjack school. At two per day fishing 100 days a year on average with 40-80 people on the boat the schools would look thinner. Those are the most voracious feeders and usually the first to bite the hook. I worked on one of these rigs in SC when I was younger and it doesn't take a fisheries scientist study to do the math. And like you, I was also commercial spearfishing at one time in SC to help pay for school, out of Mount Pleasant, with a crew that had a reef complex species permit. They didn't want AJ's because they were wasting their time and space in the fish box the grouper and snapper took up, you know the deal.

Manny Puig and I had lot's of interesting discussions about this. He commercial spearfished for decades before he became Shark Man and remembers the thick AJ schools in Florida in the 70's and what commercial fishing did to those fish. It's the nature of the beast, if its unregulated people will take advantage of it until exhaustion and until the last $ can be made compared to the effort put in. To write off the abundance of amberjacks as a result of the environment and cyclical natural reasons is a bit wishful in my opinion.... enforcement and fish and game regulations have something to do with it too I believe. Take this just as my formed opinion and not fact, as I always enjoy a nice free online exchange of information

Regards, Mark

 

[miles]

Hiya

Just curious guys, does the worms make the fish in-edible?

We have some pelagic species here that have worms at certain times of the year. Sometimes small threadlike worms, other times larger ones. Many people here readily consume these fish even claiming the flavour is better!!! :duh :duh Our Daga Salmon (similar to WSB) is also sometimes inflicted with these parasites.

Regards
miles

 

[StretchArmStron]

Erik, awesome reply...

I have no "rage" towards you bill. I prefer to not be so eloquent when someone chronically comes around and buggers up great posts, gets flamed for it, and then makes himself the victim! I'm sorry for having been as outspoken.

The post on Spearboard is the same one you see here, in its entirity and I posted your reply...mainly for others to get a laugh out of it and show that you've still not changed one bit.

I had to deal w/ a Lt. Col. w/ the same atitude....couldln't tell him a darn thing...


Bucket...I freedive off of charleston and wish I could have met up w/ you when you went out w/ my buddy Les. The couple of AJ's we've taken have only had worms in the back section. There were 2 around 30lbs and 2 in the upper 50lbs class...I got lucky with the two larger fish as they both had few worms in the VERY back section.
The grouper are in 60' now but the wind won't quit to let us get after em.

 

[rigdvr]

hey Mark, I agree aboput the pressure on jacks...why is it then that the rec take is 1 per person and the commercial take is unregulated by numbers...only that they have to be 36" instead of the rec 28"? Maybe Bucket will know as he ventures on both sides of the force Ive always wondered about that.

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

pst Ritchie- for a moment I relived my commercial spearfishing escapade from reality. I gota say that was some of the best diving I ever did my entire life. I didn't have to worry about finding the spots to the big fish and could sleep the whole way out and back and was dropped right on top of them to shoot the ones that wouldn't bite the hook or were too big and broke them off in the reef. They'd say "coon dog it aquaman!" and down 60-100ft I went right under the boat to shoot a big grouper! Man that was fun.

Rig - I'm not sure but I would guess that regulation is in place to avoid a head boat full of stinkin' amber yaks that probably wouldn't get eaten or go to worthwhile cause whereas the fisheries would argue a commercial could carve a living out of those fish. I'm glad about the 1pp rule though I have to say, nothing like diving down on a wreck with a school full of friendly sea donkeys following you around to make things fun.

 

[PhilLJCA]

I shot Sheepshead when I first got started, it was a good place to start, and I wouldnt chastise a beginer for doing it...But I agree that they are way overpressured and experienced divers (or even only moderately experienced ones like me) should leave them alone. Just becuase DFG allows shooting them doesnt make it honorable. DFGs rules (if they are being adhered to at all, which is doubtful) basically allow the species to stay about where it is. Southern california's Sheepshead population need more than to stay where it is: it needs to recover. even if the fishery was closed tomorrow this could take many years. even Ensenada, which is not exacly virgin territory, has 5x the amount of sheepshead and they average 3x the size of the ones in San Diego which says something of the state of the fishery here and the abysmally low standards that DFG has set.

 

[Chiledog]

Phil where do I sign up for you and bills honor badge for concerned california spearos against the shooting of sheepshead. It sounds like a great honor indeed. If I play nice and don't shoot fish that are cerified as easy by most must I also pass up on shooting every fish that alows me to get close without alot of effort. I must confess that I have indulged in shooting more than the occasional fish that was either unaware of my presence or undisturbed by it. If I swear off doing it again can I join your club. I loose sleep thinking that somebody out there finds my selection of certain fish or their pursuit and easy capture as dishonorable. I am sure right about now I sound like a most disagreable and pompous A-hole. If I did then I have done what I intended. Re-read your and bills post and ask yourself why people are bent out of shape with the negative comments. What makes you thinks anyone should care what you think is honorable. Is it any more honorable to shoot one kind of fish than the other. I know I can recall many instances where a certain fish was easy to spear although the certain species is considered very difficult to approach. I can recall similar instances where it was incredibly difficult to approach certain fish that are usually considered a gimme. What makes for a trophy? A memory, a good time with friends, an experience you'll never forget, an adventure to an area you've never been, a species you've never seen, one you'll maybe never see again, sharing your experience with others...all of the above...who knows. I am not sure of everything but I am sure that at least for me it will never include looking down my nose at someone elses experience of the outdoors. I have been out there more than most and less than many and I have seen enough to know that only you can be the judge of what makes a experience unique or exceptional. Personally I am grateful they posted it. I have never speared or even swam in the waters of California but peoples stories and pics have me desirous of a trip. When I am there I will shoot what I want and I won't give it a moments thought what somebody else might think of what I collect. I do these things for my love of nature and all things wild. If you worry more about what others think than what you know then you might ask yourself who you are doing it for anyway.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

When I am there I will shoot what I want and I won't give it a moments thought what somebody else might think of what I collect. I do these things for my love of nature and all things wild. If you worry more about what others think than what you know then you might ask yourself who you are doing it for anyway.

Good for you. Killing all you can within the law seems like a strange way to express your love of nature and the wild, but whatever floats your boat. The way I express my love of nature and the wild is to take no more than I need from it and do my part to leave some for future divers.

However, please read Phil's post again, and you will see that his point was not what was cool or what someone might think, but whether the DFG rules were tight enough to protect the species properly. And if you want to go back that far upstream to my first post, you will see that I mentioned the fact that many people consider the fish to be under pressure from live trappers.

As I recall, last fall the DFG abruptly closed the sheepshead fishery before the year was out because they thought that all that should be taken had been taken. Now I'm no biologist, but if they get their figures from reported catches on partyboats, I wonder what allowance they make for all those fish taken by individual divers and fishermen that never get reported to the DFG? And I wonder if it is statistically valid?

Of course you can take whatever the law allows and not let anyone push you around, but some of us use different standards. For instance, the legal limit for white sea bass is three per day most of the year, but I don't take three fish even if I can. Hell, I may let fish pass by without a shot if I got a big one the previous week. But I heard of a hero who took three fish over 50 pounds in one day this year. He was within his legal rights, but that is a hell of a lot of fish to eat when you can't sell them. Of course he has bragging rights and can tell his buddies how much of a stud he is, but I feel better being a bit more conservative. The fact that the law permits something does not make it the most responsible thing to do.

 

[rigdvr]

come on guys...let it go. You wont win

 

[PhilLJCA]

Chiledog:
I did not mean to sound like a "fish snob": the difficulty in shooting the fish really isnt the issue (at least not directly). I think I basically agree with you on what gives shooting and landing a fish value, and that it has nothing to do with difficulty, bragging rights, etc. It is subjective. But heres something that isnt subjective. Since 1950 the california sheephead population has been reduced to only 20% of its original biomass (ref. DFG Executive Summary, Semicossyphus Pulcher). Spearfisherman, who tend to take out the older, larger, breeding males have played a role in this depletion. Technically, the species isnt endangered and legally you can take 5 of them (if they are of size) a day. But the reality is that the species has been 80% depleted. Maintaining the stock at this pathetic fraction of its original size (where, as Bill said, the fishery has to be closed mid season many years) is the best current regulations will accomplish. I am suggesting that experienced spearos leave these animals alone. Why? ....Am I a tree hugging commy or a macho "fish snob" whod have you believe i dine every night on bluefin that i wrestled away from sharks after killing blindfolded with a polespear in freezing water? No...Its becuase I would like to see more, and larger Sheephead when I go diving. And yes, if the population recovers I might consider picking one off now and then for supper. When I first started out, i thought killing all manner of legal fish was great sport. I am grateful that people like Terry Maas set a good example for me by shifting their focus (and thus mine) away from territorial, slow growing, benthic creatures and towards more renewable pelagic species. All I am [respectfully] suggesting is that these guys, who may perhaps be the the Terry Maases of the future, set the same kind of example for todays beginners.
Phil

 

[gonetobaja]

I think every southern california spearfisherman has shot a sheephead. I have, never big as the ones those guys shot though.

I remember when I shot my first sheephead, I was on SCUBA using a JBL. I shot it and it was 8 lbs!! I was so proud and stoked that I got even more hooked on spearfishing. I still shoot sheephead every now and then, but not as much. I free dive now also.

But shooting that sheephead on SCUBA with my JBL magnum with the breakaway head is still on my top ten spearfishing experiences.

I like to slice the fillet thin and then fry it.

If you are a bachelor living in So Cal you can practicaly live off of sheephead. I know I did.

:wave

 

[Bill McIntyre]

If you are a bachelor living in So Cal you can practicaly live off of sheephead. I know I did.

:wave

So are you saying that there is a way to make beer out of them?

 

[gonetobaja]

But then again I didnt know about biomas depletion and things like that.

Its good that these forums are available because I didnt know about populations, I would just shoot one when I needed some fillets because it was legal and I was hungry.

:duh

 

[gonetobaja]

No but you can smoke it.... :hmm

 

[Bill McIntyre]

No but you can smoke it.... :hmm

Damn! I stepped right into that one.