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Can apnea cause brain damage?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
I can vouch for two of them. Although wreckrunner might appear brain damaged, but is just so used to dealing with crazy people, a little might have worn off on him. No excuse for Ildiver though.
 
Featherland depression and apnea was discussed here http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/70917-apnea-suicide-depression.html and here http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/70332-psychology-freediving-feedback-needed.html and some here http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-training-techniques/65921-post-training-blues.html

These need to be put in the context of how many people suffer from depression in the general population too I'd say.

Johan thanks for the research and the interesting debate.

It must be difficult to have a real control group and same levels of divers as we have seen in the past how much external factors affect freedivers from fitness levels, experiance, mood and hydration. These things certainly affect the dive and results of dives, would they therefore also have a bearing on these levels of hormones?
Does a more experianced diver have higher levels of S100B or lower because the brain has begun to adapt to the situation?

Also relative to having a few pints ( had to be the Irishman to ask didn't it) that we know destroys brain cells how high are these levels?

Also don't know if Eric F has seen this but I,ll send him a pm with the link as he has usually a lot of knowledge in the medical freddive end of things.
 
I've done numerous experiments in this area over the last 7 years, mostly experimenting on myself, but also observing and talking to other freedivers. My conclusions have been:

1. Repeated hard apnea training can cause brain damage and/or increased susceptibility to seizures if done too excessively.
2. Dynamic and static apnea are more likely to cause such problems due to the prolonged period of hypoxia, as compared to depth events where the diver is hyperoxic for most of the dive and suffers only very brief hypoxia in the last 15m.
3. Having sambas under any conditions increases further susceptibility to seizures of all kinds, including more sambas, and this effect takes at least a few weeks to wear off. This also matches experiments in rats and newborn babies.
4. During a period in 2002 where I subjected myself to numerous sambas every day for weeks, not only did my samba threshold change/worsen (according to oximeter), but my thinking and concentration were impaired. Interestingly during this type of training, eventually the samba begins while the athlete is fully conscious and in partial control of himself.
5. If done to the correct extreme, I strongly believe apnea training actually increases intelligence and brain function. In my case my IQ scores have increased continuously over 11 years of apnea diving/training (the momentary exception was in 2002 when I exposed myself to tons of sambas).
6. The above is further supported by the now famous 'protocol' to permanently increase the diameter of the carotid arteries through 'underwater breath-hold swimming,' an effect which has been extensively studied, which resulted, according to studies, not only in a permanent increase in blood flow to the brain but measurable increases in IQ as well.
7. Some athletes such as Andy LeSauce (ex-world record holder in static), show clear signs of brain damage. LeSauce is famous for performing thousands and thousands of very hypoxic statics each year for a decade or more. He constantly loses his train of thought and suffers other visible mental deficiencies. That would be an example of over training to the point of damage.
8. I definitely believe that apnea affects the nervous system in such a way that the possibility for depression is increased. In some cases apnea seems to reverse depression and create elation. Either way, the effect on mood can be profound, and seems to be one way or the other. For example, 1998-2004, I generally experienced elation after apnea training. However 2005 to present, apnea training induces depression, clearly and repeatedly.
 
Very good post Eric. When you say "if done to the correct extreme",what type of apnea training do you exactly mean?
The base of my apnea preparation for a depth competition or a national record attempt are empty lung intervals on a home bicycle , so, how "extreme" is that when it comes to brain damage?
 
S100B is specific to brain tissue to such an extent that any other source than the brain can be excluded.
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"In other animals, Neu5Gc is abundant on the cells of most organs, but exceedingly rare in the brain. It is very peculiar for a gene to be silenced in the brain, which suggests that it might have some sort of harmful effect."

These sialic sugars play a crucial but mysterious role in human evolution. As I’ve written here (and here), almost all mammals carry a form of the sugar called Neu5Ac on their cells, as well as a modified version of it, known as Neu5Gc. In most mammals, this modified form, Neu5Gc is very common. In humans, it’s nowhere to be found. That’s because the enzyme that converts the precursor Neu5Ac into Neu5Gc doesn’t work.

Malaria For Brains | The Loom | Discover Magazine

Our ancestors lost the ability to make Neu5Gc some 2.7 to 3 million years ago. Neu5Gc acts as a brain constraint, so its possible than it relates to both higher abundance of Iodine rich and Omega 3 oil rich shore foods.

There are 2.6ma stone tools at Gona site (former riverside, found above mollusk shells) in Rift valley near Afar, not far from the Red Sea coast. It is very likely that human ancestors were foraging at coasts, wading, swimming, diving, so breath-holding would have been selected for.

Is there a known link between sialic acid Neu5Gc and protein S100B, especially in oxygen delivery, that you are aware of?
 
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Well, the damage is already done. Not in the brain, but in the media.

A renowned Czech Internet magazine OSEL (Objective Source E-Learning - magazine for popularization of science) just published an article about this study. And of course, they do not mention any doubts at all, but tell both in the title and in the article that breath-holding does damage the brain.

:: OSEL.CZ :: - Volné potápìní poškozuje mozek

The title "Volné potápění poškozuje mozek" means "Freediving Damages Brain", and they quote Johan Andersson also in this way (reverse translation): „Freediving is sport where people compete in staying or swimming underwater longer, or dive deeper than others, and all that on a single breath. Such breath-holding damages brain and the effect of individual dives is cumulative…“

I do not know whether they mistranslated Johan, or whether they purposely removed the uncertainty, but definitely this article may cause a lot of harm, especially because it comes from a well respected academic magazine, not a tabloid. Perhaps Johan may want to contact the author (Jaroslav Petr - petr AT vuzv.cz), and ask him for respecting his conclusions as he published them here.
 
Very bad implications for freediving instructors getting insurance - among other things.
Maybe someone has the article about freediving increasing blood circulation to the brain handy, and can send it to this publication.
 
Jep Fondueset, exactly my fear.

Another excuse for legislation and insurance to make freediving expensive and or impossible.

It's very clear to people with some experience that media people usually don't care about truth and accuracy. NO, they only care about money and moulding the minds of the people to fit the current political wind.
If I had the power I would love to sue them for misrepresenting your work, but I guess the judge will side with the biggest wallet and say it's not lying but 'freedom of the press'. Gosh I hate those corrupt parasitic murderous creatures.

Thanks Trux for exposing it, now I hope they get punished equally to what damage they've caused to our beloved passion. - Where is my speargun?

Sorry to pollute this thread with my little rand.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars
 
Competitive freediving is defined as a sport.
Competitive walking is defined as a sport.

Freediving is not defined as a sport.
Freediving is an activity, including art, hobby, foraging method, science, sport.
Walking is not defined as a sport.
Walking is an activity, including art, hobby, foraging method, science, sport.

Report invalidated. When reports are flawed, readers are misinformed.



re. "Freediving is sport where people compete in staying or swimming underwater longer, or dive deeper than others".
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Thankyou for your imformative post Eric. I have some questions.

1 - I am interested in how you have kept track of your IQ. Were you tested by a professional or did you take some web based test? Have you done any specific IQ test performance study?

2 - Can you please direct me to more information on this protocol you talk of?

3 - Re. LeSauce -Could there possibly be confounding variable at play here? Has he commented on the aformentioned psychological symptoms?

I personally have noticed a feeling of calmness after any apnea. I have been labelling as a depressive for years and have certainly been alot healthier since I started freediving - although that could be attributed to regular exercise though.
 
To the author: I would be interested in seeing error bars in Figure 1. Thanks!
 
I think Efattah is correct in the above quote, but I never eard of brain damage among freedivers maybe we was to many in a BO, using stuff, or has he said overtraining?!??!

I know that I feel pretty beatten sometimes during statics where I don't get relaxation and I simply have to fight contractions wich I believe raises up metabolism among brain cells, gym training can also cause an overload on your CNS I also have that it takes a while to recover and I'm a subject that as been exposed to those in a minor way

When I was overtrained even not having contractions I felt tired and sick of just entering apnea mode, I think the huge amounts of cortisol produced by apnea enters in the play and you have depression sintoms without being necesseraly with a depression in a psycological way:blackeye

Anyway if you feel such synthoms that are specific foods that helps, mild meditation is also pretty good, avoid tobaco and alcool because there is a risk of dependency in such low self stem state and olny work for a pretty short period of time, freediving just for fun without packing, frc mode don't fighting contractions doing it for fun and relax helped a lot specially dnf to 10/15 m looking for shells (without googles they were those shinny blurs)made me re-think why I dived this in the first place

Hope this helps cheers
 
I never do statics. I don't like them. When I figure out a way to do them without making myself miserable maybe I'll reconsider.
Some of the Bandhas in Pranayama/yoga are used to control the rear brain - Cortisol etc. I do not have more specifics at this time but plan to do some work with this as soon as I can get with my teacher.
 
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And another idiot wrote an article with the sensational headline "Apnea Damages Brain", without explaining details, without quoting the conclusion, and without mentioning that also in many other sports (including running, cycling, long distance swimming, football, box,...) there is measurable release of S100B. This time in France, and again in a popular science magazine, posing as a serious and reliable source of scientific information.

Pour la science - Actualité - L'apnée endommage le cerveau
 


Trux I had the pleasure ( or not )to work with great scientists (or not) in my country I was a former student of applied biology a research driven bachelor and master I left this course not entirely because it didn't fullfill myself but by the person specially the teachers and reaserchers in it in an "respected" campus like that must of the time even for outsiders who don't what an carbon athom is they can notice most of the people there are more concerned about appearing in a magazine or newspapper to gain status or trying to gain a litle push to gain a more higher academic position "you are stuck with what you got (but me ohh no)" "I have to feed my ego with propontuos assumptions", bla bla bla
we are suposed to be flexible,realistic(this doesn't mean narrow minded but specific and imparcial even by self opinions or lack of confidence) and curious in order to let cognitive thinking happen not otherwise
science comunity is full of people like that:S

maybe this is why ohhh gosh I love DB and everyone in it and you know what? I really learn something here
 
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IQ is scientifically ill-defined concept and therefore cannot be used to measure anything.

IQ is just one of many examples of what happens when correlation is used as research basis. Bad use of statistical correlation gives a bad name to science time and time again.
 

IQ is a perfect measure of how good a person is at sitting IQ tests!:head
 
shoutatthesky said:
IQ is a perfect measure of how good a person is at sitting IQ tests!:head
Click to expand...

Actually, for testing your current concentration and thinking, a timed IQ test is quite useful. Doesn't do anything to compare you to other people, but you can compare yourself against yourself.

I've taken both official human-administered tests and timed online tests, and contrary to what most people think, the scores actually match quite closely. If my brain is foggy, I do very poorly. If I'm feeling super focused, I do much better. I also can tell over the long term how I'm able to solve more complicated problems faster and more effectively than before.

There are also 'super tests' that are designed to be much more difficult. Those tests can also be useful.
 
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