Can't seem to hold big white seabass

[ajwaverider]

I think your tip may be your main problem.Rock tips are ok for smaller fish or with powerful guns . You should get a hawaii or
tahatian shaft and that will help you land a few of those wsb.
Maybe work on your aspetto.

 

[peskydor]

Kelp,
You have received some good advice. Know this, a sliptip will not deploy in a White Seabass unless it is properly designed. Do NOT use a single fluke, it will deflect the tragectory of the shaft. The two flukes must be PARALLEL to the string hole. This contradicts common sense but I assure you it is correct. Unless the sliptip 'adapter' is tapered, like Riffe, the adapter will cause suction and the sliptip will not deploy (toggle). Do NOT use cable on the tip. The white seabass is very soft and cable will tear. Tie your sliptip to a slide ring with soft 1/8" nylon. Tie a loop of this line to the tip with a bowline knot. Slip a ring onto the loop beforehand which can be used to remove the fish. (reverse the tip and capture with ring). If the adapter and tip are not tapered, drill a small hole in the tip so as to penetrate the drilled cavity inside the tip. This will eliminate suction and allow the tip to deploy. In this case be aware that a 5/16 drilled tip will fit directly onto a Biller shaft but a ring must be soldered to the shaft to hold the sliptip's slide ring. I assure you that this type of tip will hold the wsb. I know and have been companion and confident to some of the legends. This design, which I have recommended to you, represents the efforts of men like Wally Potts. Wally used tapered shafts (adapters) but his friend Wes Andrew found that the drilled tip works equally well. I have used every type of tip imaginable and I recommend this for wsb.

Dump the 42 inch gun and find the dough to purchase a Biller 56 with reel. Good luck on holding a WSB without a
reel. A light touch is necessary to hold this fish regardless of tip.

Get the Biller gun with enclosed grip. This model series, in existence now for ten years, has much stronger components than other, older models, especially those made in Australia which are junk. Check EBAY if you are short of funds.
Pesky

 

[peskydor]

Kelp,
The Biller 'freeshaft' can be modified to hold these fish. If you decide to go this route I will explain.
Pesky.

 

[peskydor]

Monkey,
I've finished reading ALL the posts. Do NOT build a 'rail gun' or any other nonsense. Wait a few years. For now, the Biller gun will do anything that a Riffe or other high end gun will do which has similar traction (stretch). Keep your small gun and also get a 56" Biller (have they changed it to 54"?). If you can manage it, get the teak model. It is more accurate than mahogany when heavy rubber is used.Look, I have to take seriously anyone who can manage to whack several whites in one day, and a novice at that. You need to start looking at the details of your weaponry. That is why I have taken the trouble to explain exactly how a sliptip is designed. Start taking those baby steps NOW. Learn to make your own sliptips.The fact that the fish pulled free is irrelevant at this point. What is relevant is that it is possible that you are one of the rare 'naturals' who can handle himself in the water. Maybe you were floating on the surface and took a sucker shot. I don't know but what is important is that you didn't spook the whites and that you hit them with a 44" gun, something very difficult to do. I will mail you drawings of a sliptip and rigging if you decide to do this. Dimensions of the hex steel, length, drill hole sizes and location, etc. If you can't find the steel, PM me and I'll send some. Anyone with a grinder and hand tools can do the work. The only machine work involves having a machinist pre drill the 3/8 stainless hex stock to 5/16. The rest you can do with a ceramic tile file (carbide file), regular file, grinder and hand drill.

 

[KelpMonkey]

Peskydor-
Thanks, I appreciate your feedback. Yes I would love if you could send me the slip tip drawings, it is something I definitely plan to do. Well as far as me being a “natural”, I don’t know... maybe it has something to do with my mom repeatedly tossing me in the ocean as a toddler... More likely I’ve just been overcautious with the stalking. I read “Last of the Blue Water Hunters” when I was about 15, (now 27) and I seem to remember the wsb portrayed as rare as Sasquatch and spooking at anything, no matter how small. So when I actually began seeing them recently, I would just freeze (at first from surprise), and then use the slowest movements of a fin possible to edge closer. I guess it works. And to be quite honest the big one I began the thread about was indeed a “sucker shot” from the surface. I had been sitting motionless on the kelp surface for a few minutes, watching smaller wsb, and he cruised right under me like a submarine. Man, it would have been a perfect ambush if I had just had the right gear. But I did manage to land a decent size one previously with “grunting”. I had spooked it and it was headed away from me, and I thought “what the hell?” and began making belching noises in the back of my throat. Whattya know, instantly this fish flips a 180 and comes right back at me, and I get a perfect shot. May have been a coincidence, but it definitely didn’t hurt.
If I could ask, what do you think of the Rob Allen guns? They’re in my price range and have been recommended to me; I was thinking of getting a 120 or 130 and adapting the shaft for a slip-tip.

 

[peskydor]

Yes, grunting is an old trick. I didn't realize that anybody else knew about it but a lot of years have passed since I was a 'great white hunter', LOL.

PM your address and I'll sketch the tip as well as I can., and send the sketches.

I've heard that the Allen gun is a good piece but have never used one, personally. The Biller gun is hard to beat for all around use. It is fast loading and very 'instinctive' to aim and fire. It is extremely accurate. I use the 54 to shoot Spanish mackeral and king mackeral, and that ain't easy. I used to be a dealer for Riffe and Biller and am very familiar with those guns. I can sell you a new Baja or Island, very cheap at half retail. I also have a (used) Biller 54 teak. Very good condition. Anyway, get me the shipping address for the drawings.

Pesky

 

[LaJollaFreedvr]

the RA guns are excellent, i picked one up from mark at J&J and it is an amazing gun (130cm)...throw a floatline on it with no float and two bands and youre ready to start slaying those WSB and yellowtail...this gun has so much power its ridiculous and it is very accurate, as well as affordable...still have a place in my heart for the riffes though, cant go wrong with those

 

[peskydor]

I looked at a website which featured the 'railgun' by Allen. There were enlarged photos and a comprehensive description. I don't know, fellas. They are using a semi closed tube which they call a 'rail' for purposes of preventing the skinny shaft from flexing on the way down the barrel. The big, home made, rail guns use the tube to prevent the shaft from skittering under tremendous power that these guns use. As I see it, the Allen gun does not use any particular technology that would give an advantage. It is a rather light weight aluminum gun that would buck and shift unless the arrow is extremely light. Hence, the need to control the flight path. American, 'tree trunk' guns do this with mass. The teak barrels have very high intertia and thicker, stiff 17-4 SS shafts. Also, most of them have a proper butt and cocking stock to distribute load forces on the gut. I'll keep an open mind but sofar this Allen gun just looks to be a variation on the old European guns.

 

[dave]

The RA IS a beefed up eurogun, that is the whole point!. The thinner tahitian spear holds much better than the thicker shafts with screw on heads in Billers etc, and causes much less tearing on penetration. I have always found it very interesting that WSB are regarded as incredibly soft fleshed, whilst Mulloway and Dagga salmon, which are basically the same fish are not. Could this difference be due to the guns which are normally used to shoot them? (ie heavy American guns for WSB, and lighter Euro type guns for the Mulloway and Dagga)
cheers
dave

 

[peskydor]

No, there is no truth in that. The observation that the white sea bass is 'soft fleshed' is valid. I cannot comment on your inappropriate comparisons dealing with different species and diver anecdotes..

You need to be careful in your generalizations about US divers. This is a big country encompassing many varied diving environments. I will agree that a properly modified 'Tahitian' style shaft is effective. That is due to two factors.: the small diameter of the sharp end of the stick and the large wing (Riffe calls it a 'flopper'). I've used these extensively on my Biller gun and found them to be effective for fish up to 20 pounds or thereabouts. For larger fish I still prefer the slip tip (my design). I've taken many whites this way. For tropical diving, shooting snappers, mackeral, small groupers iup to 3 feet long, the Tahitian (called 'freeshaft') with tethering line works well; it is fast and will hold well (and release well) if modified by adding a tensioner and slide ring to the head. I see no advantage in beefing up what is essentially an Arbalette, even if called a 'rail gun' for marketing purposes.

My 'Tahitian' gun is a Biller LIMITED, 54. Not many people have ever seen one of these. Mine has been modified. Originally, the old LIMITED did not include a line release, just a clip. I took a Biller freeshaft and welded a sharkfin to the shaft and this is what holds the line. When the shaft is released so is the line. I use the light weight biller reel with stiff tuna line since my quarry are not so large when using this gun. There are two thick Riffe rubber bands with my custom stainless wire wishbones. The shaft notches are wopped out and
smoothed for seating the thick wishbones. The shaft tip has been modified to cause the wing to spring out when it strikes the fish, and to cancel any imbalance in flight caused by having only one wing. The ring which clamps the flopper does this by creating a small turbulence and breaking the offset created by laminar flow over the wing. This gun shoots better than any arbalette ever made and, I suspect, as good or better than an Allen gun. I certainly wouldn't trade a teak sharpshooter for an aluminum tube gun. A couple years ago, I landed, with this Biller gun, a Cerro Mackeral three feet long which I believe would have been a world record if registered.

 

[Hamrrhed]

"need to be careful in your generalizations about US divers. This is a big country encompassing many varied diving environments" Ouuch, that was kinda harsh. Is it me or was his comment about the gear used and not the Divers??

Maybe I am wrong but aren’t Yellowtails and kingies basically the same fish? It’s very likely that the Mulloway are similar if not the same as the WSB.

The RA like it or not is a very sweet little rig for the money (or at least it used to be....due to the recent exchange rate).

Aim, fire, kill, can't ask for more than that, AS PURCHASED.


This has been a great thread.

Anthony
USA

 

[peskydor]

Right on, equipment, not divers. However, selection of equipment is diver driven and that, in turn, is a response to the local environment. The US market has been very responsive to changes in trends and Biller has been in the lead in responding to FLA divers who want freeshafts and Tahitian shafts. Several other companies not to be neglected. You and others need to understand that native American guns arose out of the need to shoot big fish in blue water. Something like the arbalette and its progeny are laughable in that regard. Yes, American guns started out big and then smaller mods were added for the general market. The opposite happened with Euro guns. They started small and tried to grow larger. It didn't work in my opinion. Also, the American experience in downsizing didn't always work even if economically successful. I still am amazed that the various small Riffe guns sell so well. In this case, one could argue that a Euro gun, like the Allen, is just as good for many purposes.

 

[peskydor]

About the Australian Mulloway. The AM is definitely a relative of the California White Seabass. It has relatively soft flesh but, unlike the WSB, very tough, thick scales, somewhat like the red drum, also a relative. The WSB, when struck by even a very sharp point, will slough off some powdery looking particles of flesh. Not so with the AM.

 

[shaneshac]

You guys tried shooting these fish in the head

 

[guide1]

the australian mulloway is a much thicker fish than your WSB its fatter wider and longer they get spooked VERY easy but once youve shot one youll always get them ivve shot about 3 and never had any probs with penetration make sure you geet REALLY
close to the fish and hit in the right spot and youll be fine and dont let the fish swim round once youve speared it as soon as its hit swim up to it and cut its throat or at least grab it

your WSB is more like our teraglin

australian mulloway

australian teraglin

white sea bass

 

[icarus pacific]

Viz driven...

Originally posted by peskydor
I still am amazed that the various small Riffe guns sell so well.

Yeah well, taking my Island or one of the Alexanders into 5 foot viz pretty much guarantees no dinner, and so in I go with the #0 MT or my JBL.:hmm

 

[peskydor]

Hmmmm, this is getting difficult. One at a time: the Mulloway is a croaker and so, is related to the WSB and Red Drum, among others. I don't see the point of saying that it looks like this fish or that and concluding that it is more related to that one because of external appearance. When splitting hairs it is time to bring in a marine biologist but what's the point? Read all the posts and see who originally claimed that the mulloway and WSB were 'the same fish'.

As to the Riffe guns, you missed the point. My observation is that scaling down a big gun is not necessarily a good idea. No one needs a $450 Riffe MR teak gun to shoot at close range. That kind of work can be done with a $50 gun or an Allen gun or a JBL gun or a Biller gun or aaaaaaaa.............Big expensive guns are for big, expensive fish. Scaling one of these things down and advertising them as 'the best' because they are expensive, is misleading. For one thing a short teak gun will not float if a reel is attached. The short range diver would be better off with a mahogany Biller gun and a light weight, inexpensive Biller reel.
If you want a mid handle gun look on EBAY for a SEA HUNTER or DIV- AK. Make a 5/16 Tahitian shaft for it or go with a sliptip depending on game. If you need to mount a reel PM me.

 

[Oldsarge]

Gawrsh, you guys talk about the number of spearguns you have in the same way I look at my gunsafe . . . a tool for every job!

 

[peskydor]

Sarge,
Blame it on me. These fellows are mostly young and inexperienced. Of course, I consider anyone under 50 as 'young' and anyone who hasn't spearfished at least 5 countries and 100 islands as 'inexperienced'. Anyway, over time some divers do tend to accumulate a collection of some kind. Because of my years and due to the fact that I was a gun dealer I do have several guns. The main reasons for keeping the guns are sentiment and versatility. I have one gun that I will never sell, I'll leave that to my heirs. It is a custom job made especially for me by Wally Potts. That was in 1973 and one of Wally's last guns. He made one more for the boat owner who took him diving the kelp pads off shore. Wally Potts was featured in the film 'Blue Water Hunter', a close friend of Jack Prodanovich and, in later years, of me and my buds. Wally designed the Scubapro line of aluminum and wood guns that were produced in the 60's-70's. Jack designed the gun that is sold under the JBL name. Design wise, a lot has happened since then. The most significant is the transition to flex steel, 17-4 arrows in the 5/16 dia. Jack and Wally started doing this before anybody else although they used 3/8 arrows made from 'maraging' steel. It was Guy Gilpatrick who gave them the idea. I helped to spread the idea in Florida beginning in 1971. Back in those days I imported the Sea Hornet but was unsatisfied with the wimpy shafts. The rest is history as they say. Funny thing, Jack and Wally never used the shaft notch to hold the rubber bands. They welded a 'rudder' to the shafts and this one fixture held all three bands. This idea was picked up in various forms but ended up as the sharkfin which is quite a bit different from the original. I still make my own rudders as they were originally intended; that is to correct a 'drop' problem identified by Jack and Wally during thousands of test shots and experiments. Nothing about the physics has changed. Arrows so equipped will fly straight and true. Wally told me that the design was suggested to them by world famous archer, Howard Hill. The Biller shaft responds especially well to this design concept. I maee my own from blanks. Later, when Biller started making flex steel arrows I would order partially machined shafts from them. Saved me the trouble of grinding the sear groove anyway. I digress.

I used to have a 335 H&H magnum. Never went bigger than that unless you count my 10 GA auto. With hand loads, my buddies and I killed so many geese at the 'salton sea' that they passed a law against the ten gauge.

 

[guide1]

all i was saying is that you cant compare a mulloway to your wsb
there completly different fish i was trying to say that the wsb has a stronger resemblence to a teraglin and behavours similar i wasnt saying the wsb wasnt the same species as the mulloway or that its more closely related to the teraglin just that they look and behave similar