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Carbons vs plastics.

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Skindiver

100 % H2O
Feb 5, 2002
267
40
118
Much has been written about carbon fins out performing plastic fins.

I have recently had the opportunity to try out some C4 falcons and Omer millenium carbons immediately after removing my cressi hf's.

I realise that you have to get used to the frequencey etc of the fins but i found both sets of carbon fins to be noticeably softer, and producing considerably less thrust than my Cressi's. When i gave either of the carbons a good dolphin or flutter kick they just bent at my toes, more so the Omers. During the down-stroke the Omers actually bent my toes down with the blade. Waiting for a propulsion event when the fin 'snapped back' was a non event. The fins were very light, easy to kick and very slow to return. the cressis bend much less especially not at the toes and the propulsion seemes sustainable with a high power application.

The over bearing sensation that i had after a length or two in the pool was that i would not like to have to turn at 40m with these noodle like fins and attempt to get going up again. I tried the C4's at some depth and found that you had to bicycle them ie kick it and then 'stand up' on the bent blade whilst it slowly straightens to get any sort of action out of it. C4's were smooth with a nice feeling of propulsion on the way down. These carbons to me seem to work only when they dont have to work. Boot them and you are left paddling.

I know many have spent mucho pesos on carbons and im not actacking your purchases so please dont kill me and if i can find some that will perform specially when being punished, so will I. Else i will have to autoclave some up myself.

PS. The cressi's have shallower foot pockets at the heels and this is not nice, requiring me to wear Y's. Nice foot pockets on the carbons, ( both with Omer pockets) Both sets of carbons allowed for surface swimming which you hardly can do with the cressi's.

The worst fins i have ever donned were a set of 'Green' Esclapez where the plastic showed by way of a whitened stress line already at the toes where they flexed. ( a similar feeling to the above mentioned carbons.)

I am 6'1" and weigh 230. Legs are very strong and i put a good wack into my fins at the best of times particularly the dolphin kick at the turn at depth. Any advice here please ?:confused:
 

Pekka

neoprene dreamer
Aug 22, 2001
790
60
118
41
simillar experienses

I remember diving with my sporasub radicals, and now that I compare them to my omer milleniums....I feel the same the radicals were like macaroni underwater I felt like I had just a little bit thurst with them and they bent from close to the foot pocket.. The omer fins bend more equally along the whole plade...and I feel like they have more consistent force as I am diving...
Well that is my opinion:hmm
 

Walrus

Oz freediver
Oct 3, 2001
693
77
0
blade stiffness

Hi Skindiver,

I think the problem you had was nothing to do with the blade being made of carbon fibre, but they were just too soft for you.
By the sounds of it you have really strong legs and also require a really stiff fin for your size & weight.

I use Picasso carbons, and tried using a Green Esclapez a few months ago and they felt horrible. Once you get used to a stiffer fin, I don't think using a soft one will feel very good.

There is a new Omer carbon fin that has a "Pro" version that is extra stiff, also the C4 fins come in different models. I suspect you didn't have the stiffest either.
From what I've read here on the forums I think you should give the Omer Ice's a try (The one's with the clear blade). They are quite stiff and suposed to give a similar performance to carbons. Also look way cool. There is a thead of this somewhere on DB, have a read.


I use carbons and find they give me a bit better performance, but I really like the way they feel, the flex is much better.

See ya,

Wal
 

pim

freediving maniac
Mar 3, 2002
293
27
118
53
Hey Skindiver,

I have to agree with Walrus. I was used to the Gara's after using them over 2 years. Then I bought the old-type sporasub pure carbons. These are really stiff and I liked them a lot.

Using my buddies C4's (falcon-25) felt horrible and even more worse are the M-tecs. Last year I bought the C4 falcon-80 and after just a little time I love them, but I did change my finningtechnic.

I think there is a lot of difference between the brands and models of fins and you have to change you technics to use them effeciently.

Sofar I used 2 types of Gara's, 2 types of Sporasub Pure carbon, Sporasub radical, Sporasub standard fd-fin, C4 falcon 25 (two different composits), C4 falcon 80 (two different composits) and the M-tecs.

Greetings Pim
 

andrsn

Just visiting...
Aug 26, 2001
1,213
75
138
48
i've been spearfishing with both of the garas for about 3 years. i love them for any type of surface swimming, but i feel they lack power turning back up at depth. i then went to the omer millenium competitions(plastics). they rock. seriously. tough as nails and go as soon as you turn on the engine.

last trip, i broke out the omer millenium carbon pros(company investment ;) ). i hated them at first. these are the stiffer of the two omer carbons. it took a while to figure out how they work. i usually dolphin kick alot and that just does not work with these. after about 4 hours in the water with them, i started to get the hang of the new kick. after that, i truly saw why everyone loves carbons. for me, and i'm 6'1-195lbs, it's a shallow flutter kick. it seems like you're actually flipping the blades back and forth with these things.

anyways, it just takes time and patience. try different kicks and just pay attention to what works and what doesn't. i love them now because they're so forgiving on my ankles when i'm in a mad sprint after fish, or away from the toothy critters. :D

seriously, i think the omer carbon pros are the performance sneakers of the longblades.

cheers,
anderson
 

Skindiver

100 % H2O
Feb 5, 2002
267
40
118
Horses for courses.

Thanks to all of you for replying.

What sums it up then seemingly is that Cressi Gara hf's are a respected performance plastic blade out performing ( on a power level ) many softer carbons.

The stiffest carbons however are voted to out perform ( on a power level ) the stiffest plastics. Carbons in general need a different technique to plastics.

1) Assuming unlimited legs is it fair to say stiffness equals power ?

2) What are the stiffest carbon blades on the market in each manufacturers range ? Millennium carbon Pro's seem to be the Omer flagship in stiffness what about C4', sporasub and the other manufacturers ?

3) Does Cressi make a carbon fin ? Ive seen a poster with Pipin diving into the depths with a huge set of carbons on with yellow 'cressi- sub' emblazoned on their underside ...

4) What length do these things get to ? My gara's size 44/45 are 87 cm total length. A bit short ? I would have liked at least 1m. ( misguided ? quest for more power )

Thanks for your replies guys.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Erik

pim

freediving maniac
Mar 3, 2002
293
27
118
53
By my knowlegde the C4 falcon-80 are the longest available fins on the market. Just short of a metre.

I have them and after getting used to them, love them. But they aren't the best choice for a spearfisher. They are designed to go deep in a straight line. Short quick turns are difficult.

Greetings Pim
 

Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
4,731
753
218
Re: Horses for courses.

Originally posted by Skindiver
3) Does Cressi make a carbon fin ? Ive seen a poster with Pipin diving into the depths with a huge set of carbons on with yellow 'cressi- sub' emblazoned on their underside ...

.

Hey Skindiver, Cressi doesn't make a carbon fin. I have seen pictures of Umberto with Cressi footpockets and a big carbon blade, with a big Cressi logo, but they are the old removable pockets with a C-4 blade.
Cheers,
Erik Y.
 

Skindiver

100 % H2O
Feb 5, 2002
267
40
118
cressi C4's

Probably was Umberto Erik .... hey thats quite a cheeky move huh ?

Pim are those C4 80's the stiffest in the range ?
 

pim

freediving maniac
Mar 3, 2002
293
27
118
53
Hi,

The stiffness of the C4 falcon-80 depends on the model year. You have to have the 2001 model, earlier models aren't that stiff. They have a 2002-model but I haven't recieved any comments on the blades sofar. Althought I just ordered a pair of falcon-25, for in the pool and competition. So in a couple of weeks I can tell you what changes they made in the carbon and maybe to go for the 2002 model.

They are quite expensive so first try to find someone who has them, so you can see if you like them or even try them in the water.

Greetings and keep breathing 'Mad' Pim :duh
 

Poor Knight

Active Member
Jan 5, 2010
6
1
38
Just a word from a mere beginner - I have upgraded to the Esclapez Green fins from Mares Avanti Plana closed heel fins, and have been more than pleased.

The contention that carbon is king may be absolutely correct, but the thing that must be remembered is that the beginner has a lot of conditioning to go through before they can make full use of the additional power transferring abilities of the Carbon blades. A whole new style of kicking needs to be learned and muscles conditioned.

As such, the more flexible fins may just have a place for us beginners!
 

trullalla

New Member
Jun 23, 2005
351
57
0
48
hi skindiver,
here my thoughts:

1) Assuming unlimited legs is it fair to say stiffness equals power ?
yes and no. "stiffness" is a very generic word. how and where the blade bends is the key. but if you have a proper fin with the ideal hyperbolic bend, then stiffness equals power

2) What are the stiffest carbon blades on the market in each manufacturers range ? Millennium carbon Pro's seem to be the Omer flagship in stiffness what about C4', sporasub and the other manufacturers ?
not sure about that. probably nobody knows the answer:) but you have the chance of having custom made carbon fins. spierre made a pair for me, since i don't like fins that are too stiff close to the foot and could never find a blade which made me happy. you can ask him whichever stiffness you wish.

3) Does Cressi make a carbon fin ? Ive seen a poster with Pipin diving into the depths with a huge set of carbons on with yellow 'cressi- sub' emblazoned on their underside ...
i'm rather sure they don't. never seen one pair.

4) What length do these things get to ? My gara's size 44/45 are 87 cm total length. A bit short ? I would have liked at least 1m. ( misguided ? quest for more power )
i think the falcon 80 are the longest fins on the market. but spierre could make them longer. note that just "long" per se doesn't mean much. again, the bend it's more important. plus longer fins need to be softer than shorter fins, at least towards the end of the blade.

there is a ukranian spearfisher manufacturing fins, who does 78 and 85cm (or more) fiberglass blades. i have the softer short model (see them here), and i find them too stiff for my legs, but i'm a girl after all. he makes medium and hard stiffness, and i'm guessing the hard it's real hard. if you're willing to give fiberglass a try, i'd go for those.

i definitely agree that every fin need its own kick. you need to adjust your kick to the fin and not the other way round.
and i agree that the esclapez are the worst fins that have ever been made!

linda
 

trullalla

New Member
Jun 23, 2005
351
57
0
48
haha! how funny. just noticed that the thread was started in 2002! i'm sure skindiver found what he needed long time ago:)
 

spaghetti

Campari Survivor
May 31, 2005
4,669
1,507
353
52
haha! how funny. just noticed that the thread was started in 2002! i'm sure skindiver found what he needed long time ago:)

How time flies! According to my sources in Vatican, Skindiver made himself a priest and joined the Benedectine Order back in 2007. He's now a serious candidate to become the next Father General of the Order, and eventually a Bishop. Who'd have guessed? :eek:
 
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