COMPETITION FREEDIVING: HARMING OUR SPORT?

[Penyu]

Very interesting thread and compliments to PJB on the initial post!

I do like reading about or watching clips of competitive freediving (nope, not UFC or MMA). Its thrilling for the inherent danger of diving deep and it speaks to the competitive part of my character.

Then again, from another point of view 'freediving competitions' seem like an oxymoron similarly absurd as a 'yoga match' would be.

 

[izirajder]

After my first BO at static I realised and was very shocked how easy a freediver can die.
Competition means pushing to the limit. Pushing to the limit in freediving means getting close to the border between life and death.
Freediving is not like other sports where fatal injuries also occur. There is a "short and straight line" between pushing and dying. You need a buddy (lanyard, safety freedivers, etc.) not because you can´t do it without a partner but because there is a big risk of needing help to survive.
Dying on a marathon is not similar. A same heart attack can kill you also at home while watching TV or having sex. And you can stop anywhere you want. If you have a problem -100 m under water you need to do another 100 m to come back to safety.

I love the recreational part of freediving but agree that freediving is not well suited to competition.

 

[Rik]

Well, I was a bit disappointed that the discussion at the FB page didn't take off, but perhaps the original article did require some rephrasing.

The physiology of freediving is pretty wel known, a accident like that of Nick was predicted several years earlier, and we have been very close with similar accidents to a fatality where the accident was just not severe enough to kill someone. The anatomical changes including the pathological remodeling of Nick's heart was also predicted in one scientific paper. There is no surprise there either.

However, no one seems to be worried that this change is linked to pulmonary hypertension, which can be fatal as a disease. If I would be a freediver suffering from lungsqueezes, I would have myself checked for PHT.

I also would agree that the mentioned statistics are deceiving, because we don't keep proper statistics of black-out and lungsqueezes on high risk (NR/WR) dives. Somehow AIDA also decided not to keep track of BO's and LMC's after 2005 when the surface protocol was modified. It was predicted that this decision would increase BO's and LMC"s and risk-taking behaviour, and while we don't have the official statistics, the signs are clear. 5% BO's and 5% LMC's prior 2005. 30% BO's are now not a surprise and we have no proper statistics on LMC at all.

So, if the risks are known, why are people taking risks? It seems that a lot of freedivers suffer from "Summit Fever". When climbing mountains, some people choose to go for the top, even if the weather is bad, the timing is bad and they don't have the equipment or the training to survive. In my experience, especially people like Nick, who are aspiring national champions with a tight budget, are quite susceptible for this kind of behavior.

In competitive freediving, there is this tradition that competitive freediving is a Zen thing to do. Most of the older freedivers will remember the image of Jacques Mayol, meditating and doing yoga prior his world record attempts. But not many freedivers realise that he got severe black-outs during WR-attempts.

This is a example of the cultural cognitive dissonance in competitive freediving. The fact that you do meditate and train physically hard doesn't change the risk deep diving can cause on short and long term. Being a yoga or meditation guru doesn't protect yourself from doing foolish dives and harming yourself.

Currently, the idea persists that competitive freediving is a safe sport, and you are self to blame if you hurt yourself. Freedivers do not report their injuries because it affects their ability to dive and it would affect their self-image and their image towards others. There are a lot of stories of freedivers who have finished their competitive freediving career after sustained chronic health issues, but don't want to come forward with it, to the public or other freedivers.

With the knowledge on acute and chronic lung injury we need to change the idea that competitive freediving is a safe sport. We need to accept that high level competitive freediving *will* damage your health, just like for example competitive boxing and advanced freediving can be just as lethal as high altitude climbing. If we accept this for a fact, we could start with the necessary precautions as learned from these kind of activities.

 

[PJB]

PJB,

Please detail your experience in Competition Freediving as a competitor, a spectator, a judge or a safety diver. What you have described sounds extrodinarily illinformed as does your suggested remedy for the current 'situation.'

Dear Adam (and mermaidgirl/Carla),

I haven’t had time to reply till now, sorry. Where to start:

1. Adam, I’ll answer you about what ‘qualifies’ me to broach a discussion about the subject later, but we’ve actually met and I’m familiar with your accomplishments. You’ve also written eloquently on apnea-related matters. With respect, your question is not only off subject but a transparent Trojan Horse - bait you're hoping I'll take so you can launch the tired old defense raised by ‘special interest’ groups against external criticism - the ad hominem attack. But this is a good-faith, open forum discussion designed to shine light on a subject that clearly bothers many. Shooting messengers won't help. Readers able to put ego and emotion aside for a moment will note the essence of my posts is that A) hard evidence suggests apnea competition seems to be regressing rather than advancing in its aim to project 'the apnea gospel' into the public sphere. Recent incidents, whatever their individual origin, make this a simple, objective fact. B) an internet timeline of discussions show that both AIDA and its competition clique have collectively failed to deliver on a series of promises, stretching back years, to ‘clean things up’ – yet DESPITE this the drive to take competition into the mainstream continues unabated. Then C) we can argue the details but I claim the causes INCLUDE organizational deficiencies, competition format and competitor attitudes. This, and the technical evidence for non-linear outcomes in inputs vs outputs that keeps catching your ‘most knowledgeable’ clique unawares. The prospect is binary Adam: apnea either is, or is not, ready for the Big Time. So is it? Note my subject heading had a question mark in it; it wasn't a statement. However, I have a question for you and Carla: please tell me what ‘special knowledge’ I need to possess before either of you will permit me to conclude that, when others tell me they shy away from apnea because of what they see in competitions, they actually mean it?

2. Let’s move on. Take a quick stroll down apnea-internet lane and right out the gate you run – repeatedly - into a standard narrative that freediving is 'the 2nd most dangerous sport after wingsuit base jumping’. Its even repeated on a site called ‘kidzworld.com’! Tell me, do you think this is true? I'll assist you with the answer: it's irrelevant. If it’s on the net it’s true thanks to the Facebook/Twitter culture, and good luck convincing the media and public otherwise. The deeper question is: does competition diving, as currently executed i) amplify or ii) improve this (false) perception?

3. Some commentators on this thread have sought to imply things are 'OK' by simply dividing Nick Mevoli's death by a large number of ‘successful’ dives. This is an error of logic quite common in risk assessment. To illustrate, a fire chief once told me: ‘If you haven’t had a fire for 20 years, it just means you’re 20 years closer to your first fire. It comes down to WHY you have the fire’. Translated: AIDA’s safety record was built on sand because at the extreme end apnea outcomes remain opaque; the MMA-style culture of competition and non-linear, asymmetric outcomes was the gun, Nick Mevoli the trigger. Never forget that every blackout or severe samba is, in effect, death cheated. No other sport has this exact dynamic.

4. Since you're spoiling to second-guess my 'credentials' let's first have a look at what more 'knowledgeable' people than I have had to say on the areas of concern I've raised:

i) On the risks that underlie current competition CULTURE & FORMAT:
WILL TRUBRIDGE (Outside Mag 2012): "It's like playing poker. You're playing the other divers as much as yourself. The hope is that your foes choose a shallower dive than you can do, or that they choose a deeper dive than they can do and end up 'busting'".
NPR USA, 2013: "(Sarah) Campbell and other blame overly ambitious competitors who have seen others return from death unscathed, wrapped in a cocoon of safety divers and medics".
NPR RADIO 2013: "Squeezes are common in free-diving. Judges and safety divers describe athletes surfacing, posing for YouTube and then ducking behind a buoy to spit up slicks of blood flecked with white body tissue".
MIGUEL LOZANO (Freedive-Earth.com 2015): "(The rush) is the main problem I think in freediving - there is a rush to get objectives so fast, you lose a little bit the essence of the sport. I think once your only goal in freediving is numbers, the game is over so fast: You do world records or you black out".

ii) On AIDA's 'Readiness':
NPR USA (2013): "But (Sarah) Campbell also criticizes AIDA, the organization that governs competitive free-diving. She says the group isn't proactive enough in publishing accident reports".
KIMMO LAHTINEN (NPR USA 2013): "The organization is victim to the paralysis of an all-volunteer organization that's run democratically". (PJB: in organizational terms this approach is great for talking ABOUT problems, not solving them).

iii) On Blackouts & Lack of Control:
BILL STROMBERG (New Yorker Mag 2009): "It's about how well you know your body."
CARLA SUE HANSON (Outside Mag 2012): "Rules are set up to ensure that, through the whole dive, the diver is in full control. That’s what competitive freediving is all about: control". (PJB: Where's the evidence then?)
SEB NASLUND (Outside Mag 2012): "Blacking out is like shitting yourself. It's an embarrassment to yourself and others".
MIGUEL LOZANO (freedive-earth.com 2015): "I think that somehow it looks like we’re going back a little bit to the CMAS thing and with the media and everything you can’t have people just blacking out and blacking out and then ok I make it you know? Maybe it’s not the best example".

Adam, are these references suitably 'informed'? If not I could offer others. The 'net is awash with similar opinions.

Now to answer the question you directed at me: Despite a recent opportunity to assist in competition as a safety diver I elected not to get involved - for all the reasons described. I've also spent quite a bit of time in the company of competition athletes, and draw several of my opinions from direct conversations. More importantly, I qualified as an AA instructor alongside you. You might then recall that, on our course, any candidate that blacked out or even had a samba was disqualified because of Pelizzari's argument that: "a diver who can't demonstrate sufficient knowledge of and control over their own body can't teach the sport to others". You seemed quite happy with this philosophy then. Is competition exempt from this value system? Why? Personally, and after 3 decades of trying to kill myself via an assortment of other adrenaline sports, I've elected not to dive at or near my limits. That's my choice. But I repeat: I fully support maximal efforts at the cutting edge of the sport, just not in mass competition. Not yet. And I have as great a stake as anyone else in our sport's overall health.

So Adam, in the final analysis I think rational people can agree that there are problems with, and not a little discord within, competition diving. Thing is, competition represents just a fraction of the sport but casts a VERY big and (too) often negative shadow over the activity as a whole. The public image and reputation of the sport belongs to all of us, not just an elite clique. I can't wait for the day competition divers demonstrate greater humility in how they approach their responsibilities and yet, ironically and despite all the negative publicity, the sport is growing. This is a good thing on one hand but it also means that, very soon, even more competitors will be lining up to chase numbers, play 'poker' and spit blood behind the buoys & bushes while AIDA wrestles with 'democratic volunteerism' and the challenge of shoving its competition agenda into the limelight. I'll leave you with a final quote; it's by someone you know: "I'm glad the sport is becoming more popular, but I'm also concerned amateurs do not assess the risks properly" (Adam Stern, 2015).

 

[PJB]

Well, I was a bit disappointed that the discussion at the FB page didn't take off, but perhaps the original article did require some rephrasing.

The physiology of freediving is pretty wel known, a accident like that of Nick was predicted several years earlier, and we have been very close with similar accidents to a fatality where the accident was just not severe enough to kill someone. The anatomical changes including the pathological remodeling of Nick's heart was also predicted in one scientific paper. There is no surprise there either.

However, no one seems to be worried that this change is linked to pulmonary hypertension, which can be fatal as a disease. If I would be a freediver suffering from lungsqueezes, I would have myself checked for PHT.

I also would agree that the mentioned statistics are deceiving, because we don't keep proper statistics of black-out and lungsqueezes on high risk (NR/WR) dives. Somehow AIDA also decided not to keep track of BO's and LMC's after 2005 when the surface protocol was modified. It was predicted that this decision would increase BO's and LMC"s and risk-taking behaviour, and while we don't have the official statistics, the signs are clear. 5% BO's and 5% LMC's prior 2005. 30% BO's are now not a surprise and we have no proper statistics on LMC at all.

So, if the risks are known, why are people taking risks? It seems that a lot of freedivers suffer from "Summit Fever". When climbing mountains, some people choose to go for the top, even if the weather is bad, the timing is bad and they don't have the equipment or the training to survive. In my experience, especially people like Nick, who are aspiring national champions with a tight budget, are quite susceptible for this kind of behavior.

In competitive freediving, there is this tradition that competitive freediving is a Zen thing to do. Most of the older freedivers will remember the image of Jacques Mayol, meditating and doing yoga prior his world record attempts. But not many freedivers realise that he got severe black-outs during WR-attempts.

This is a example of the cultural cognitive dissonance in competitive freediving. The fact that you do meditate and train physically hard doesn't change the risk deep diving can cause on short and long term. Being a yoga or meditation guru doesn't protect yourself from doing foolish dives and harming yourself.

Currently, the idea persists that competitive freediving is a safe sport, and you are self to blame if you hurt yourself. Freedivers do not report their injuries because it affects their ability to dive and it would affect their self-image and their image towards others. There are a lot of stories of freedivers who have finished their competitive freediving career after sustained chronic health issues, but don't want to come forward with it, to the public or other freedivers.

With the knowledge on acute and chronic lung injury we need to change the idea that competitive freediving is a safe sport. We need to accept that high level competitive freediving *will* damage your health, just like for example competitive boxing and advanced freediving can be just as lethal as high altitude climbing. If we accept this for a fact, we could start with the necessary precautions as learned from these kind of activities.

Dear Rik,

Nice post, and another 'QED'.

Just one clarification that I seem to be struggling to get across. My position is not that the medical fraternity lacks understanding on freedive physiology per se. Rather, it is that there is a school of thought in freediving and the literature which holds that talent, physiological adaptation to training and ultimate performance are highly individual, and thus somewhat non-linear and variable. Exhibit A: Cyprus 2015 where a third of the elites hit a brick wall on a single day due to changes in ambient conditions and dive times. Whatever else it may also be, the word 'opacity' springs to mind. And thus the question: can a sport subject to non-linear, potentially lethal and visually disturbing outcomes walk alongside other sports in a social media driven world? Well, the answer is of course that it can - but should it? And at what overall cost?

Keep Well

 

[karl bellamy]

"You have to accept the idea, while you are descending that if you keep on going it will kill you. On the way down you have to completely accept that idea that you are killing yourself" W.Trubridge.
The type of publicity that won't get mum and dad support.
"Many athletes have had black outs and have not shown symptoms afterwards" Mermaidgirl.
So that makes it alright?
"Normalization of deviance” is used to explain the gradual acceptance of performance results that are outside normal acceptance criteria. Most scary, an organization's standards can decay and no one even notices. How this occurs and what can be done about it are concepts that should be central to current considerations of safety culture.
Diane Vaughan penned this term to describe the attitude and culture at NASA that was part to blame for the Challenger and Columbia disasters. In other words because nothing has happened yet, doesn't mean that it won't.
William Trubridge lost his sense of taste after a deep dive, due to what part of the hypoxia is unclear, but what else is being neurologically damaged after deep dive blackouts and samba etc?
Until the science is in we should er on the side of caution and not rely on an old Aussie collouquiasm " she'll be right mate".

It all starts with a discussion of opinions to facilitate change, bear in mind there are no criticisms only feedback, hopefully for the better.

 

[Mullins]

William Trubridge lost his sense of taste after a deep dive, due to what part of the hypoxia is unclear

The part that makes you take dodgy Egyptian meds?

 

[noa]

Well what a timely thread !
A big thank you and congratulations to PJB for bringing the subject to the surface, along with such eloquently refreshing writing.
Many great contributions to this thread and I think we are mostly all seeing eye to eye on the matter.

Besides competitions, I think freediving in general is extremely focused on numbers. And that in itself is the cause of many of its issues.
Whenever an average person hears I freedive, the first thing I always get is the typical "how long can you hold your breath" along with "how deep can you dive" ?
For me both these questions are absurd and I always refrain from replying to them.
The reasons i personally freedive is to actually get away from this land based cognitive thinking. I go to "free" dive, not "think" dive.
Understanding that human nature is often competitive and many want to explore how far they can go within a certain pursuit, I'm happy to have people doing that. But indeed I do find the notion of freediving and competition ludicrous at best.
Having said that, there are of course an important number of divers wishing to partake in these events. So yes, let's find formats that allow people to push their boundaries within safer confines.
Perhaps limiting depth in certain ways would be of use, such as CMAS had their "jump blue" discipline some years back.
I'm confident that various options could be successfully explored.

 

[Mullins]

I think freediving suits competition quite well. Easy to measure how good you are (depth / time / distance are kind of relevant metrics...) I focus very much on numbers and find the "people are doing it for the wrong reasons" stuff I hear now and then really pompous.

Will Trubridge did a 'live' (well, lagged by a few minutes but essentially live) record attempt on NZ TV last year and blacked out near the surface. Made for good, tense viewing actually - wouldn't be sport if nobody failed. Safety handled it well and the audience saw Will walking around looking disappointed but otherwise fine a minute or so later. If anything it saw more people turning up to clubs.

 

[PJB]

I think freediving suits competition quite well. Easy to measure how good you are (depth / time / distance are kind of relevant metrics...) I focus very much on numbers and find the "people are doing it for the wrong reasons" stuff I hear now and then really pompous.

Will Trubridge did a 'live' (well, lagged by a few minutes but essentially live) record attempt on NZ TV last year and blacked out near the surface. Made for good, tense viewing actually - wouldn't be sport if nobody failed. Safety handled it well and the audience saw Will walking around looking disappointed but otherwise fine a minute or so later. If anything it saw more people turning up to clubs.

Hi Dave,

I agree it 'could' someday. But I'm simply saying evidence shows its not 'ready'. The organisational frameworks don;t seem to be in place, the screening is not mature, the competitor culture is gung ho and the outcomes asymmetric. Will Trubridge walking around 'fine' is not an indicator that things are under control. He survived a blackout. Unless things change chances are this was just a filler till the next serious incident. And then we'll be treated to (another) bout of confusion and soul searching, as if it fell out of the sky. but ironically, you've offered an interesting and very relevant example. I got up early and sat next to my ADSL router so I could watch Will's record attempt live (bandwidth & all) even though I doubted he'd make it given the pressure he was under. He handled it exceptionally well and responsibly, as we'd expect from 'cool hand Luke'. But recall, I have nothing against record attempts: push as hard as you like, take as much risk as you can justify. Its when athletes of variable experience and talent (Pelizzari says its mostly down to innate talent at the cutting edge. Who knows) line up under current conditions that I think the wrong message is going out. Question: under the current system and approach, let's say AIDA's dream got realised, things went fully mainstream and sponsor and media pressures intensified, would outcomes get a) better or b) worse, and would the sport's image be easier or harder to sell to the broader public as a result?

 

[divebike]

I think freediving suits competition quite well. Easy to measure how good you are (depth / time / distance are kind of relevant metrics...) I focus very much on numbers and find the "people are doing it for the wrong reasons" stuff I hear now and then really pompous.

Will Trubridge did a 'live' (well, lagged by a few minutes but essentially live) record attempt on NZ TV last year and blacked out near the surface. Made for good, tense viewing actually - wouldn't be sport if nobody failed. Safety handled it well and the audience saw Will walking around looking disappointed but otherwise fine a minute or so later. If anything it saw more people turning up to clubs.

Well you've made this thread good tense viewing, just waiting to see how many new ones you get torn. I don't like pompousness but I totally agree with the view that some people do dive for the wrong reasons, if you die or are seriously injured pushing beyond your limits to look like a legend to an audience then you're a fool, with your attitude i'll be looking in the newspapers to see your name, it might even make the front page that would be worth it, wouldn't it.

 

[Penyu]

. I go to "free" dive, not "think" dive.

Absolutely! But mind you, the misleading use of the prefix 'free' is not unique in our sport. Free-riding, free-skiing and free-climbing are all guilty of it. Trying to maintain its original counter-culture approach of breaking 'free' from the normative environment and officialdom of 'regular' sports, but then falling into the same trap of doing it for the numbers (and sponsors) like most mainstream sports at elite level. What remains is an empty shell and a well marketed image of 'freedom' that comes with the territory of 'extreme sport'. One must wonder how the elite of any of the 'free' sports are training year round, depend on sponsorship and pursue numbers and rankings and still talk about 'how free it makes them feel'. Nothing wrong with competition and ambition - just drop the false image of 'free'.

Despite all the commercialism in surfing, at least they got it right when it comes to using the 'free' word. A free-surf session is one purely for pleasure and self-expression. No format, no judges, no rankings, no price money.

 

[Mullins]

PJB - I think if you raised the stakes, you'd see a bit more pure game theory i.e. athletes' risk/reward calculations would be more rational and more consistent. I don't know where the failure rate would stabilize, but something like 5-20%? The athletes would be better trained and prepared, the incentives higher and more scrutiny of failure, so you'd have several guys/girls at roughly the same level doing roughly the same risk assessments. At some level of conservatism you'd be so unlikely to win that it'd be pointless competing, so everybody would have to take a degree of risk. But similarly I don't think you'd see many people significantly overreaching, which is (sometimes) a problem today. It would be more marginal stuff - momentary surface BOs, failed SP etc. So overall, probably better outcomes but I'm really speculating. I doubt it would turn audiences off.

Divebike - are you saying I dive recklessly? Love to hear your assessment of my level of conservatism.

 

[PJB]

PJB - I think if you raised the stakes, you'd see a bit more pure game theory i.e. athletes' risk/reward calculations would be more rational and more consistent. I don't know where the failure rate would stabilize, but something like 5-20%? The athletes would be better trained and prepared, the incentives higher and more scrutiny of failure, so you'd have several guys/girls at roughly the same level doing roughly the same risk assessments. At some level of conservatism you'd be so unlikely to win that it'd be pointless competing, so everybody would have to take a degree of risk. But similarly I don't think you'd see many people significantly overreaching, which is (sometimes) a problem today. It would be more marginal stuff - momentary surface BOs, failed SP etc. So overall, probably better outcomes but I'm really speculating. I doubt it would turn audiences off.

Divebike - are you saying I dive recklessly? Love to hear your assessment of my level of conservatism.

Dave you might well be right that things would improve. I don't know. But invoking game theory is actually quite justified here, so good on you because it introduces elements of variability based on incomplete knowledge between participants, and in one way explains (some of) the outcomes we're seeing. There is something in competition format and culture that is amiss, and needs looking at. Period. And if my post can trigger serious discussion or review rather than the usual self-interested, knee-jerk defense then, ultimately, it may help me sell the sport to a wider audience in my little corner of the world. After all, apnea is leading the way in and hypoxic/hypercapnic training and, whatever else, its core elements are going mainstream in sports science. Much to look forward to. Keep well, hope to see more PB from you in years to come (...not in comps!). Cheers

 

[Mullins]

They'll all be in comps, mate! At least the depth ones will be. I think if you banned comps and went with individual attempts instead you'd get essentially the same dynamic, just spread across greater time / distance and with fewer people due to cost. Divers would still be trying to one-up each other and taking calculated risks to do so. That's sport. It's hypocritical to congratulate people for performing well, then suddenly condemn them when they push that fraction too far and fail. And yes, everybody who trains does 'focus on the numbers' to some extent, even when they pretend not to. Everybody takes some degree of pain and risk in order to achieve time / depth / distance in apnea, which is why I dislike the sanctimoniousness sometimes directed at 'comp divers'. While they deal in bigger numbers, often their risk is lower due to all the support around them - it's lone recreational divers who keep dying. I'm probably safer doing 120m in Kalamata (that setup was great) than I am spearing fish here at home, even with a buddy. I do think it's fine to tell the reckless comp divers to pull their heads in however because that's not fair on organizers or safeties.

There have been comps in which quite a few divers have pushed too hard and organisers have messed up. Remember though that there are many comps around the world that are excellently managed with lots of clean dives.

Speaking of knee-jerk crap, let's hear more about my attitude from Divebike...

 

[PJB]

I kn

They'll all be in comps, mate! At least the depth ones will be. I think if you banned comps and went with individual attempts instead you'd get essentially the same dynamic, just spread across greater time / distance and with fewer people due to cost. Divers would still be trying to one-up each other and taking calculated risks to do so. That's sport. It's hypocritical to congratulate people for performing well, then suddenly condemn them when they push that fraction too far and fail. And yes, everybody who trains does 'focus on the numbers' to some extent, even when they pretend not to. Everybody takes some degree of pain and risk in order to achieve time / depth / distance in apnea, which is why I dislike the sanctimoniousness sometimes directed at 'comp divers'. While they deal in bigger numbers, often their risk is lower due to all the support around them - it's lone recreational divers who keep dying. I'm probably safer doing 120m in Kalamata (that setup was great) than I am spearing fish here at home, even with a buddy. I do think it's fine to tell the reckless comp divers to pull their heads in however because that's not fair on organizers or safeties.

There have been comps in which quite a few divers have pushed too hard and organisers have messed up. Remember though that there are many comps around the world that are excellently managed with lots of clean dives.

Speaking of knee-jerk crap, let's hear more about my attitude from Divebike...

Of course they will Dave! But for my refusal to ever use emoticons, you would've seen the attempt at humour. OK we've flogged this horse to shreds, but I'll leave you with a last riposte: a) note my premise is that apnea is not quite like other sport; the underlying meaning of 'failure' is more significant, and more troubling to non-divers and a wider public audience in general and is currently counter-productive and b) you comment that 'there have been comps...' - yes, the sport's flagship event where over a third of the competitors blacked out. To me this implies a lack of personal and organisational risk assessment; a lack of 'Control', and this is the perception I hope AIDA will address. No more, no less. Can a 'democratic, volunteer-based' body deliver?

As for Divebike, he has a point but I picture him in front of his PC wearing a gum-guard and headgear with a box of pocorn, spoiling for a scrap. Maybe HE should try competition diving... (I jest)

 

[divebike]

They'll all be in comps, mate! At least the depth ones will be. I think if you banned comps and went with individual attempts instead you'd get essentially the same dynamic, just spread across greater time / distance and with fewer people due to cost. Divers would still be trying to one-up each other and taking calculated risks to do so. That's sport. It's hypocritical to congratulate people for performing well, then suddenly condemn them when they push that fraction too far and fail. And yes, everybody who trains does 'focus on the numbers' to some extent, even when they pretend not to. Everybody takes some degree of pain and risk in order to achieve time / depth / distance in apnea, which is why I dislike the sanctimoniousness sometimes directed at 'comp divers'. While they deal in bigger numbers, often their risk is lower due to all the support around them - it's lone recreational divers who keep dying. I'm probably safer doing 120m in Kalamata (that setup was great) than I am spearing fish here at home, even with a buddy. I do think it's fine to tell the reckless comp divers to pull their heads in however because that's not fair on organizers or safeties.

There have been comps in which quite a few divers have pushed too hard and organisers have messed up. Remember though that there are many comps around the world that are excellently managed with lots of clean dives.

Speaking of knee-jerk crap, let's hear more about my attitude from Divebike...

apologies I did go to far

 

[divebike]

Sports comparisons, I think depth diving competition is to the pool discipline what the isle of man race is to modern day track racing, hang on I spilt my bloody popcorn, right now ,ok the guy that has the riskiest mindset has a major advantage or he dies.lets do this , we'll go to a pool event, lets say to all the competitors what distance are you going to do today, all right fine what we're going to do now that you know precisely what distance you can achieve at this moment is we're going to put a taut pool cover over the pool when you reach the required distance we'll take it straight off, you're doing an event that already has a much safer alternative, the part I have as much respect for as PJB does for me is the guesswork part with extreme consequences if you slightly miss guess.

 

[xristos]

Just to add to the topic, I went 2 times to attend a local pool competition and for me it was a great experience, I enjoyed it although there were some black-outs etc. I got to admit though that I wouldn't like my parents to witness that. There was one incident though that I couldn't watch with a straight face. I was in the other side of the pool so had some difficulty seeing but the diver(woman) seemed like after her dive lost it and got pulled out of the pool by safety dragging her from the arms. I lost sight of her after. In the end I find some good reason after PJB diagnosis and agree that a freediver with failure at surface protocol all the time should get some kind of penalty.

 

[Mullins]

With all this death and 'extreme consequences' it's a wonder I'm still alive.