competitive swimmers as freedivers

[Mullins]

They probably would benefit Simos. From something more similar to classic style than they currently use anyway, if still slightly modified for freediving.

But given some can have lousy technique and still perform at WR level while others can train for ages and not get close, it's safe to say it's not a huge factor. Freedivers go so slowly that bad streamlining simply isn't that much of a problem. My biggest DNF dives have been done with deliberately sloppy technique because at that speed relaxation proved more important than form. I can swim with pretty good classic technique in DYN too, but I don't on long swims. Changes a bit as you get faster, of course.

 

[Haydn]

Hang on a sec. If Herbert had rubbish technique for his WR dynamic 10 years ago (despite his experience), how come in Hawaii (my third max attempt) I did so well? Maybe because I was the swimmer and it came naturally and Herbert had to rely on his own learned ability which was less of a contributory factor than his fantastic genetics. (although I always thought Herbert too was competitive swimmer, or maybe that was Martin).

What would I have been capable of if my static was better than 4:15 ? ie if I had Herberts static ability around 7 minutes then. Just think, that would have given me maybe one minute more dynamic time or 100 metres more dynamic distance. Say 250m then (ten years ago) if only I had a breath hold to match. What if I were also Herberts age, and Herberts shape and weight? Would that have been worth 20 meters more? What if my heart worked properly? (its been repaired now). What if I had Dave and Will and Stig and Martin to train with a few times a year? Would I have been a contender?

As it was, I was just very ordinary. I might have been the best at dynamic in the UK for a season, but thats nothing special when there were only 20 of us in the UK then. Today there are hundreds of very well trained freedivers across the world, yet still they struggle to get past 100m and 150m is only a dream for most. Yet they can all hold their breath way beyond 5 minutes.

Something is causing their dynamics to fall short. I maintain its because most lack the training that a swimmer or other athlete has as a core foundation prior to coming into the sport. Non swimmers have to learn to freedive from a standing start. Everything they do has to be newly learned, A swimmer learned those lessons and has trained them for 20 years already. Its that advantage that outweighs genetics. And I think answers the OPs question. The swimmer is not nervous of the water, he has been in love with it for years. A 50 meter swim is nothing whether vertical or horizontal distance is involved. A swimmer is calm and competitive. Just what a freediver should be.

Otherwise, the question is intriguing. How in Hawaii 2002, did I do 156m (Herbert did around 144m) dynamic with only a 4:15 static? at a time when experienced freedivers with 6 min statics were struggling to get past 100m? Remember, third max effort, 45 years old then (55 now), 2 stone overweight, basic waterways mono, no neck weight, no full speedo suit, no experience, no idea about the styles that really work today, no Stig, no Pederson, no Russians, no one to copy, emulate or learn from. Just me doing what I felt was natural.

Genetics were not involved. Something else was giving me the edge.

I do agree with Dave though about style. In those days, we didn't know what made great style. For me it was about moving through the water comfortably. I do remember borrowing a great mono that allowed me to change my style into a kick and flutter rhythm, I really fancied experimenting. But the Doc banned me.

Must say though, I really want to dust off my fins this year. Although I am concerned I may fall in love again and , and I cant risk dropping my current swimming plans. Maybe a spell freediving will be a relaxing diversion, but I am frightened of rekindling an old love affair.
(By the way, anyone know what Tyger Verbeck is doing nowadys? He was a star in Hawaii).

 

[chrismar]

Sorry Haydn, I don't agree.

I've never done a 6 minute static, yet I can do 200m dynamic. I have trained many non-swimmers with ~4 minute statics that can happily do 100m+ bifin dynamics and even DNF swims. I don't know a single person in our club who's doing 4+ minute statics and not 100m dynamics. As a generalisation, if you can hold your breath more than six minutes and can't do 100 or 150m dynamics, you're doing it wrong. Being a swimmer helps, but it's miles away from being a requirement. Our club's best dynamic swimmer can do 250m with a monofin but has trouble covering that distance on the surface doing freestyle.

 

[Mullins]

Were you blacking out at 4:15 Haydn, or just coming up?

Single results don't make a particularly compelling case, especially when it's not evident you were at any genetic disadvantage in that discipline. But as a counter-example, early in my career I did some DNF training as an afterthought and, with technique that would make a breaststroke swimmer physically ill, did 175m in a competition. I know people who have trained much harder, for longer and who swim with better technique than I did back in (2007?); but who cannot do that distance.

 

[growingupninja]

I swam competively for about 11 years, starting from the age of 5. I took a break of over 10 years before getting into freediving/spearfishing at a hobby level, so I can't really speak with anywhere near the expertise of many of those on this thread, but I do think trained swimmers will naturally have advantages, mostly in the beginning and intermediate stages, especially in dynamics; it's just closer to what you train for. For a 100 meter freestyle your coach yells at you if you take even one breath but this has nothing to do with dive response--you've just trained your body to be very efficient with O2 consumption, have spent years perfecting the efficiency of your stroke technique, and have through practice developed a large lung capacity. Even as a kid most of the stronger swimmers on my club team would do 50m to 75m just underwater breaststroke for fun; with monofin who knows. But none of us would do 4 or 5 min breath holds. At the end of the day, competive swimming does nothing to develop actual dive response, although it positions you to go out and do so...

 

[Haydn]

I suppose with Chrisma's point of view, something is happening to him that gets him to 200m. I expect his performance is down to being an experienced and capable freediver taking advantage of many current years. So he employs a range of skills that commenced as an untrained freediver and subsequently raised his game as these skills were mastered.

The issue of this thread is at the beginner stage though. With no years to draw uopon. Seeking to understand whether a swimmer has an advantage as he is introduced to freediving when compared with a non swimmer, or other person who has prior skills from an earlier sport.

I have explained my experience as a lowly freediver, experienced enough to get a 4:15 static within a year or so of commencing in the sport. So very much on the edge of having gained some skills but certainly not a top performer. Yet, I still managed something quite special at the time, in dynamic. It was not a genetic advantage and definately a swimming one.

I agree with Dave that if I had been the perfect freediver genetically (and combined with skills, experience and training), I could have been a record holder. And the genetics would give me an edge, but that is all it would give me, an edge. The performance results would mainly be due to other factors that far outweigh the genetics.

The edge of a newbie freediver can easily be recognised in the trained swimmer.

My 4:15 static was my best competitive time. I had red cards at 4 mins and 4:18 and had three or four white cards in between. So despite my efforts, I was rubbish at static but great at dynamic as a ratio. I believe the reason is because I was trained to have economic O2 with movement at low revs. But rubbish at rest (static) as my heart was faulty and missed out certain beats and had a poor rhthym. Much like a cold motor engine, rubbish at 1000 revs but ran sweetly at 2000.

Anyway, I have probably had more than my tuppence worth.

Hope to see you somewhere wet, sometime soon.

 

[chrismar]

I swam competively for about 11 years, starting from the age of 5. I took a break of over 10 years before getting into freediving/spearfishing at a hobby level, so I can't really speak with anywhere near the expertise of many of those on this thread, but I do think trained swimmers will naturally have advantages, mostly in the beginning and intermediate stages, especially in dynamics; it's just closer to what you train for. For a 100 meter freestyle your coach yells at you if you take even one breath but this has nothing to do with dive response--you've just trained your body to be very efficient with O2 consumption, have spent years perfecting the efficiency of your stroke technique, and have through practice developed a large lung capacity. Even as a kid most of the stronger swimmers on my club team would do 50m to 75m just underwater breaststroke for fun; with monofin who knows. But none of us would do 4 or 5 min breath holds. At the end of the day, competive swimming does nothing to develop actual dive response, although it positions you to go out and do so...

I've never heard of a swim coach demanding no-breath 100s from a squad. Are you sure?

No fins 50s and 75s are no surprise. If they were doing 100s and 125s though, that would be different.

Incidentally, I'll be judging a statics competition amongst one of the better swim clubs in my hometown in a couple of months. Four squads with no specific freediving training, but with some basic tips on what to do and how to do it safely from me. I guess the results could be interesting. I'm expecting the winning time to be in the mid fours, maybe pushing five.

 

[growingupninja]

I've never heard of a swim coach demanding no-breath 100s from a squad. Are you sure?

No fins 50s and 75s are no surprise. If they were doing 100s and 125s though, that would be different.

Incidentally, I'll be judging a statics competition amongst one of the better swim clubs in my hometown in a couple of months. Four squads with no specific freediving training, but with some basic tips on what to do and how to do it safely from me. I guess the results could be interesting. I'm expecting the winning time to be in the mid fours, maybe pushing five.

I guess it depends on your coach but by the time I was 15 or 16 years old my coaches used to gripe at me for breathing on a long course (50m pool) 100 freestyle race; I was taught that it wastes time. If you watch an olympic heat, a lot of guys won't breathe on the 50, and on the 100 they frequently don't breathe until the second lap. I would typically take a breath midway through the second lap; in retrospect, the need to breathe was in large part due to exhaling on the flipturn to keep water from coming up my nose, and my coach could well have been overcompensating since breathing in or out of turns was a cardinal sin. This was when racing sprint events--not for practice, although a certain amount of light apnea was part of most practices--not much underwater swimming but we'd do long intervals between breaths, like breathing only every 9 to 15 strokes; every 3 or 5 is comfortable for hours of continuous swimming. Most distance swimmers breathe more regularly from the get-go on their races. Now on the occassions that I do pool training, I do mostly FRC and exhale underwater finning so that I can get a workout on a single 50m length, but also a fair bit of freestyle but now always with at least 9 strokes between breaths.

 

[chrismar]

I guess it depends on your coach but by the time I was 15 or 16 years old my coaches used to gripe at me for breathing on a long course (50m pool) 100 freestyle race; I was taught that it wastes time. If you watch an olympic heat, a lot of guys won't breathe on the 50, and on the 100 they frequently don't breathe until the second lap. I would typically take a breath midway through the second lap; in retrospect, the need to breathe was in large part due to exhaling on the flipturn to keep water from coming up my nose, and my coach could well have been overcompensating since breathing in or out of turns was a cardinal sin. This was when racing sprint events--not for practice, although a certain amount of light apnea was part of most practices--not much underwater swimming but we'd do long intervals between breaths, like breathing only every 9 to 15 strokes; every 3 or 5 is comfortable for hours of continuous swimming. Most distance swimmers breathe more regularly from the get-go on their races. Now on the occassions that I do pool training, I do mostly FRC and exhale underwater finning so that I can get a workout on a single 50m length, but also a fair bit of freestyle but now always with at least 9 strokes between breaths.

Pieter van den Hoogenband breathes every two strokes for most of the 100 free, as do a lot of the other swimmers. More than 4 strokes per breath is very unusual in the 100. I've not heard of coaches teaching long distances with breaths every 15 either. How long ago is this and where were you training?

 

[growingupninja]

Pieter van den Hoogenband breathes every two strokes for most of the 100 free, as do a lot of the other swimmers. More than 4 strokes per breath is very unusual in the 100. I've not heard of coaches teaching long distances with breaths every 15 either. How long ago is this and where were you training?

Wow I feel old now. I haven't followed competive swimming in many years so I may very well stand corrected but I was last racing seriously in 1994. Nobody I raced with--and we all emulated the guys at the top and had exposure to guys at the olympic/national level--ever breathed every 2 or even every 4 strokes on a sprint event and of that I'm positive! I swam in Arkansas--to be a state champion there means little but I was usually also placing at respectable multi-state championships like Zones and Region VIII (I don't know if they even still have these), and the U of A team was coached by an ex-Olympian and usually had some swimmers who were at Nationals or Trials. I grew up going to swim camps under those guys. Was pretty burnt out by college so I didn't keep it up, but picked it up for a bit again when studying abroad in 1999, but it was just something to do and not a lifestyle.

I think you may have misread part of my post--while my coaches used to emphasize fewer breaths for sprint events, nobody I ever knew recommended breathing every 15 strokes for distance. It was part of a training ladder we used to do--typically something like 6x200 pull, breathing every 3 strokes, then 5, etc to 15 and back down throughout each 200, or sometimes doing one lap of each stroke interval. It was a tough set, I think intended to increase lactic acid tolerance. UW swims were only ever part of cool down, and were pretty relaxed, not intended to push apnea limits.

We were also encouraged to breathe on alternate sides. Perhaps nobody does this anymore; the sport has certainly changed in other ways. I remember teaching swim lessons under an old guy who'd been an Olympic swimmer and it always boggled my mind that he didn't know how to do butterfly since it simply didn't exist during his career.

 

[HansQz]

Our club's best dynamic swimmer can do 250m with a monofin but has trouble covering that distance on the surface doing freestyle.

I just wanted to reply to the comment above.
I used to be a competitive swimmer (distance freestyle & 400 I.M) and I still swim 4-5 nights a week for training (3,000-4,000 yards). My kids swim competitively now.

Competitive swimming has changed a lot since I was younger, most notably, competitive swimmers spend more time underwater during races, and in order to train, breath-holding is part of warm-down (for example, swimming laps with only 1 breath p/lap; it also decreases build-up of lactic acid after a strenuous workout and works as a dynamic stretching exercise).

Nowadays, coaches and swimmers know that swimming above water slows a swimmer down. It causes a wake, and a wake creates drag. Also, swimming underwater (especially dolphin kick) increases full range of motion and kick.

Check the video link I attached here, with Hill Taylor swimming the 50 meter "backstroke" in only 23 seconds (he took a voluntary DQ)


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNb6yxFU9hk&feature=endscreen]Amazing underwater swim - YouTube[/ame]


There are other videos that show the difference between Mark Spitz and Michael Phelps and the evolution of butterfly: Michael Phelps spends far more time underwater than swimmers did years ago.

 

[Mullins]

The advantages of swimming underwater are well understood HanzQs. Chrismar was saying that that diver's underwater performance was clearly not based on swimming fitness or technique.

 

[Simos]

From what I've seen and read so far, a background in competitive swimming gives you a clear edge up to intermediate level (in terms of performance) but this edge starts to diminsh for top level performances. I think it's still a great foundation to have and IF the genetics are there too AND freediving specific technique is developed, it could lead to world class performances but this is not necessarily true if some of the other ingredients are missing.

The way I see it is that there are 4-5 areas that a freediver has to train (technique, relaxation, breathold etc) plus the genetics which you can't do much about and having a competitive swimming background jumpstarts you in 2-3 of those areas you have to train.

The main advantage I see is that particularly when it comes to technique, it is often something you have an edge because as Jody pointed out in many cases it's almost impossible for many adults to get a proper monofin technique. However, it's still just one (significant) factor of many.

 

[mystiach]

I don't believe I ever said it wasn't possible for adults to get a proper monofin technique. Maybe Carla disagrees with me here, but I think it's much easier to learn the monofin than it is to learn a decent breaststroke kick. And for the purposes of freediving, I think most people can learn technique that's good enough. An equivalent could be sports like soccer training sprinting. Athletes won't be near Bolt's speed but they don't need to be - they just need to be respectable. More is a bonus, and an inversely proportional one.

Re: competitive swimming. Yes, it's faster to swim underwater (except freestyle). The 15m rule was introduced for that reason. World shortcourse champs, 1998ish? Michael Klim did fly mostly underwater, took only 1 or 2 strokes to breathe before turns, and broke several world records. Then everyone cottoned on and started doing it so FINA changed the rules. Once you're on the surface you're on the surface, and other than 50s, it's probably better to have a good rhythm than it is to breathe less. Which is why you'll see swimmers racing breathing to one side only, though they won't train that way.

As a youngster I was unusual in that I would breathe every 4-8 strokes in our training sessions depending on what pace we were going. At most in a hypercapnic session our coach would ask for 7. Nowadays at the very peak of a CO2 pyramid, swimming very slowly and with technique falling apart at the top, I'll breathe every 14 or 16, and that's hard work. The difference between breathing every 10 and every 14 for a distance is significant. Breathing every 14 means I only take 3 breaths per 50m, once as I come up, once around the 2/3 mark and once before I turn. In context of a 25m pool that's only one breath per length (about every 12 strokes), just after the turn. I can't keep that up for long.

The advantage from swimming is efficiency in the water, which means that if two people are otherwise identical, the swimmer will do better in DYN (any swimmer could pull off 100 DYN or DNF, probably as a first attempt). But as soon as you have someone with advantage for freediving, they'll have the capacity to do more. Being a good swimmer doesn't mean that you're going to have the right physiology for freediving... they don't seem especially related.

 

[foxfish]

I was a competitive swimmer about 40 years ago!
I live in the channel Islands between England & France & also competed against both of those countries.
I was 6 years old when I first swam one mile & 9 when I swam 5 miles in a cold water sea pool.
I also competed in various diving board disciplines but only up to 12' (3mt) spring board.
I was competitive from about 1970 - 1980 but even thought I was spearfishing at the same time I have never developed a good underwater breath hold, not even to this day!
Both my brothers had a far better breath hold that myself even though they never spent the time in the pool like I did?
To be honest I have never been a deep diver or a good breath holder.

 

[Simos]

I don't believe I ever said it wasn't possible for adults to get a proper monofin technique. Maybe Carla disagrees with me here, but I think it's much easier to learn the monofin than it is to learn a decent breaststroke kick. And for the purposes of freediving, I think most people can learn technique that's good enough. An equivalent could be sports like soccer training sprinting. Athletes won't be near Bolt's speed but they don't need to be - they just need to be respectable. More is a bonus, and an inversely proportional one.

Re: competitive swimming. Yes, it's faster to swim underwater (except freestyle). The 15m rule was introduced for that reason. World shortcourse champs, 1998ish? Michael Klim did fly mostly underwater, took only 1 or 2 strokes to breathe before turns, and broke several world records. Then everyone cottoned on and started doing it so FINA changed the rules. Once you're on the surface you're on the surface, and other than 50s, it's probably better to have a good rhythm than it is to breathe less. Which is why you'll see swimmers racing breathing to one side only, though they won't train that way.

As a youngster I was unusual in that I would breathe every 4-8 strokes in our training sessions depending on what pace we were going. At most in a hypercapnic session our coach would ask for 7. Nowadays at the very peak of a CO2 pyramid, swimming very slowly and with technique falling apart at the top, I'll breathe every 14 or 16, and that's hard work. The difference between breathing every 10 and every 14 for a distance is significant. Breathing every 14 means I only take 3 breaths per 50m, once as I come up, once around the 2/3 mark and once before I turn. In context of a 25m pool that's only one breath per length (about every 12 strokes), just after the turn. I can't keep that up for long.

The advantage from swimming is efficiency in the water, which means that if two people are otherwise identical, the swimmer will do better in DYN (any swimmer could pull off 100 DYN or DNF, probably as a first attempt). But as soon as you have someone with advantage for freediving, they'll have the capacity to do more. Being a good swimmer doesn't mean that you're going to have the right physiology for freediving... they don't seem especially related.

Sorry Jody I have a terrible memory, I think it was Carla that said it - judging by the people in our club, a good number that attend the technique-specific sessions relgiously very week and put in the effort have developed pretty decent monofin technique and some like me just simply have a terrible technique lol

Still the ones that used to be swimmers have better technique but the difference is probably not that massive from the ones that developed a decent monofin technique.

Overall I do agree too as per my previous post that apart from technique it doesn't really mean that the physiology is necessarily related - this becomes apparent when you see how competitive swimmers perform in STA (or people with a decent technique). There are plenty of people in our club that could probably do double the DYN I could but our STA are very comparable (or were when I used to train a bit).

 

[Kars]

Pieter van den Hoogenband breathes every two strokes for most of the 100 free, as do a lot of the other swimmers. More than 4 strokes per breath is very unusual in the 100. I've not heard of coaches teaching long distances with breaths every 15 either. How long ago is this and where were you training?

Hi Chrismar,

I've met the man on several occasions in the pool, sharing each other some info on what we love. He told me that on the first 50m of a 100m sprint he doesn't breath. So the not breathing for sprints looks to me like the norm for top athletes. It's also the way how I win freestroke from friendly sprint races

I think having a competitive swimmer history is has both advantages and disadvantages. Since the advantages already got mentioned, what are some of the disadvantages?
For one, I think the association of being in the water and having speed and time in one's mind. Another is having the body pre tense muscles in anticipation of fast and powerful swimming. In all a lot of unlearning - deprogramming work.

 

[esom]

Yes Kars, glad you pick this one up again.

although it´s more a risk than a disadvantage: a ex competitive swimmer may "work out" in the water to good parts of his or her training. in swimming this works for a certain extant as the aerobic power is crucial and on the adaptation side sensitive to "simple loading". in distance diving this works even less, i suppose.

unlearning and deprogramming...
i think the (intuitive) answer to the question "what is diving technique?" can be seen as a frame of our possibilities in learning.
maybe "where is diving technique located?" is significant too. - or was this integrated in the earlier question?
maybe we should talk more about "technique". i feel the use of this term is chaotic

 

[foxfish]

I know that any success I had from competitive swimming had something to do with aggression!
It is that ability to get really determined to win by exerting not only physical strength but the will to beat the chap only a few inches away from you, to do that I would get pretty cross with him!
It seems that trying that hard & very often pushing until your muscles fail, is not the right psyche for calm minded free diving?

 

[Haydn]

I believe that whilst non competitive swimmers eventually pick up the monofin technique, the swimmer will do so more quickly.

Whilst a non swimmer may turn out impressive dynamic distance, this might well be due to an exceptional breath hold. Both would be new skills and need substantial training.

The swimmer is more likely to be economic in movement and have a far slower O2 burn, thus a shorter static (like mine) is compensated for by the more efficient style underwater. Because my static was rubbish, I had to get my dynamic over and done with. I could never last two minutes in dynamic, even going slow (which is unecomic too), I lost my edge. My 156 took 90 seconds and I had the feeling that distance could be gained the faster one went. I couldnt prove it though because I had to stop holding my breath whilst waiting for my heart to be fixed.