Conditioning and/or desensitizing dive respons?

[baiyoke]

This must have been discussed before, and I've seen related talks in various threads, but the search function has not helped me. Links please if you know of relevant threads.

How does different training approches affect DR in the long run? Just to take two extremes.

1) One school or training paradigm might say that you should do lots of apnea walk, apnea biking, dry tables, and mostly training technique in water, with suit, mask and noseclip. Then when it's time for a competitiondive, no mask and noseclip, and the feeling of doing apnea in water will be stresful and will kick in DR strongly and early.

2) Another school of training paradigm might say that you should do lots of specific in water training, no suit, mask or noseclip, and lots of wet tables and near PB dives, to train and condition the diverespons to get stronger.

Now, this is not a question on how to maximize dive respons here an now, it's a question about how to affect dive repsons in the long run. Should/could it be trained and made stronger, or is it perhaps innate, and only get's weaker as we get more used to the stressfactors.

I can see the logic in both approaches.

On the other hand option 1 (mostly dry) approach might not "train/condition" the body and the DR for water related activity. And option 2 (wet, specific training) might desensitize the dive respons to a weaker form, because the body gets used to feeling water and the stress from hypoxia/hypercapnia.

I've read comments from people saying their dive respons commes later and later with training. On the other hand, it's my impression that most advice on training seeks, to some degree, to get in to DR mode often and make it a "trained respons".

To confuse me even more, one weel known diver seems to advocate specific DR activating traing, at the same time as wanting as big a stress effect in competition/target dives as possible, wich is sort of in favour of the "specific training/conditioning of diverespons" but at the same time might be less stressful in targetdives because all training is also done that way, desensitizing the respons. As I see it, it is sort of a catch 22... It's seems difficult to get both. Or does it??

Any thoughts about this? Is it a matter of finding a balance between the two, or what would be better for a good DR in competition over a long period of time?

Is it possible to train/condition a good strong diverespons, without desensitizing it at the same time?

 

[baiyoke]

All comments and opinions are welcome, it doesn't have to be an in depth analysis... Anyone?

 

[monkeyhatfork]

What exactly are you're goals as a diver? Are u gunning for a world record? Competition win? if not best just relax and go diving allot the dive reflex is there and will evolve on its own.

 

[baiyoke]

He he - I hoped for a comment closer to topic, but I did write all opinions are welcome, and I think I get where you are going with that... but you got me thinking there... Allthough slightly off topic, and a difficult question, this is what I came up with in relation to where I think you are going.

I have some goals. Certainly not world records. Just goals of longer DYN, longer static, deeper diving etc. Competitions, yes. Top contender, no, not necessarily. For me it is very much about the process. My main goal is to have fun and feel good about this hobby or lifestyle. Part of that fun is to try and understand what's going on. That's how my mind works, and that what's fun to me. I like progress in my hobbies, and I like to know why stuff works.Same thing about fitness training. I want to know a lot about training, and even though I'm not training for anything, I like the process. So I've spend a lot of time in my life reading about training and keeping up.. and training of course. Because it's fun. In the gym I don't do programs, I just do what I have on my mind when I'm there, but not randomly. I train with reflection, and that's how I have enjoyed training some kind of fitness or sport for a long time... Works for me. Some people can just go and do something: Run 30 minutes, lift some weights here and there, just to burn off energy and keep fit. For me that doesn't works. I need to work with things in my mind also... People are different. Same thing in freediving.

However the process of understanding stuff, and work with details, can lead to more specific goals. Fx I've got a goal about how deep I'd like to dive this year, but really the number is not the thing, and it's not important if I reach it. It's the work when figuring out how to get there... And that IS important to me, because that's what's fun.. Right now I'm working with equalization in freefall, and that does give me a goal about depth, not for the number, but because I'd like to master the tecnique "just for fun" (allthough there is more to it than "fun", like feeling good, and the reward of succes). So you might say, that part of what is fun for me, part of my goal, is a thread like this.. It's like an adult playground, a puzzle to solve, mentally and physically, until the next one pops up... And they do all the time at the moment...

Can I take it from your answer that you think that the diverepons is pretty robust, and it will only make a small difference to work with general training paradigms or methods like the above mentioned?

 

[monkeyhatfork]

not knocking ur line of questioning just think its good to assess ur motivations from time to time I also think to many people complicate things getting wrapped up in technicals that don't yet apply to them. I'm 100% intuitive i love reading tech threads and seeing what people are figuring out but when I get in the water I'm not thinking about any of it i'm just enjoying the ocean. I do think dive reflex is just there, I'm sure u can create ideal circumstances for it but i think thats more important if at the top levels already and looking for those few extra meters. I've played around with just about every mode of training i've read about on Db and used to train in the pool 5 days a week. I recently moved to Hawaii so I could dive everyday and would say i've progressed more even in just the past few weeks simply going diving allot than in the past 4 years of "training" and in my case as it is i have to force myself out of the water once or twice a week to recover so would never waste my legs on something like apnea running etc.as the goal is to get back in the water asap. Check out this video he's probably never heard of the word dive reflex, apnea walks,statics but operating on a very high level anyway cause its just there and nothing trumps time in the water. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBjLyH2Pvg0&feature=share&list=FLF8PEX4v1UsNQT6bw0wfBwQ]Freediving Sunken City.mov - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Kars]

Very good question Baiyoke.

I've a bit of a similar challenge. At this moment I've cycling a lot to my job, and have been cycling fast, it's like a 50min sprint against the wind, and on the way back it usually just a bit slower, because I've been working in the water teaching people how to swim for 3-5 hours. (Now about 200km a week) So I've got a very good stamina, but that is not beneficial for pb level dynamics, because it increases the blood flow to my muscles, allowing them to keep using O2 from the bloodstream much longer.

So now my challange is to adapt my preparation and dive tactics to have the desired vascular constriction sooner, and stronger, so my muscles will stop using my bloodstream O2 quicker, allowing more for my heart and brain. Without this I need to come up because of low O2 in the brain, and when I do I notice no 'legburn' or lactic acid build up at all.

Now your question of DR is helpful, because In order to medicate my high muscle bloodflow, I need to strengthen my DR.
The DR is a bunch of actions the body does in order to economise the current resources.
Stress is a powerful way to get DR responses. But I think we can learn to trigger some of these by sheer thought. I think when we master some of this we can make some remarkable jumps in numeric performance. For instance, if I manage to induce vascular constriction 1 minute earlier in my dive, I think I may be able to do a more then 1 minute longer static. But it's just some tinfoil head guesswork, and I'm really hoping the experts who have tried come along and share their experience.

In the time I held the Dutch static record, I feel I did succeed in turning on some responses before the dive. Still I have the ability to get into that state in a rather short time, by focussing on a part in my brain and really slowly inhale. I feel a total relaxation and body response doing this.


To get back to your question.
Having a lot of DR invoking stresses for your pb dive is only beneficial If you manage to keep your mental cool at the same time, I think.
If my aim is to spearfish all day, then I think I would like to feel a relaxing comfort, and not the most strong DR.

Maybe the most of DR is like a muscle? If you condition it well it will become quicker, stronger and deeper. When you overload it, it breaks, distorts etc ?

What is DR?
How do we measure DR?
What invokes DR?

Difficult challenging stuff.

Thanks for asking!

 

[cdavis]

"Is it possible to train/condition a good strong diverespons, without desensitizing it at the same time?"


Good question, and I agree with Kars. Yes and no and it must be complicated as heck. It also depends on what you are trying to do. Serial diving and the desire for comfortable dives seems to require a different approach that one-off max dives.

Its clear that stress improves DR on a one off basis and the same stress repeated over and over results in less DR,on a one off basis, other things being equal. But they aren't equal and that's where it gets complicated.

First, what is DR? I'm pretty sure it is a complex web of reactions that revolve around vasoconstriction and bloodshift strongly affected by blood/gas levels, but include blood chemistry changes and who knows what else.

Based on my experience, DR, whatever it includes, is trainable for serial diving(I don't do max dives). However, it is very hard to separate (and may make no real difference) training that strengthens DR from training that improves things that affect DR. For example. For me, getting the breathup just perfect strongly affects dive length, seems to strenthen DR. I think what is happening is achieving the optimal c02 level to maximize early onset of DR while still allowing a comfortable dive. Is that strengthening my DR or just setting the right conditions for it? I don't know.

Good discussion

Connor

 

[cdavis]

Monkeys comment that the best training is just go diving is right on, as far as it goes. However if your technique is bad, you can dive frequently for years and still have lousy performance(personal experience). Intellegent, focused training helps hugely. I get to go diving far less than in the past, yet my performance is far better due to frequent training. It would be better still if I could stay in Hawaii with Monkey for a month or two.

Ahhh . . . those dolphins.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

Dolphins have been great mentors. I think both u guys touched a bit on what I was trying to get at in that serial diving has different requirements than huge one off attempts and best not kill yourself training for one if you're reality is the other. Kars - understand the bicycle thing as its is also my transportation and allot of anaerobic climbs en route much of the time but kinda works out for me cause for what I'm doing often mean covering miles on the surface often very fast then trying to shut down as fast as possible to dive but I've found the better i get at doing that, the faster i can get into that mode when diving from a relaxed position, again tho I'm talking about serial diving.

 

[baiyoke]

Well, now I see more clearly where your'e going monkeyhatfork. Let me first say that I really did not know where to put this thread, because I too think it's a general topic. In science forum, in advanced forum? But I put in in "Training: Static and dynamic forum" because more than everything else, it's about peak performance in competition, or recreational PB performances, that one long dive. It's about pushing the limits further. If it was not about that, it would of course be less important to dig deep into. But that said, I think a wider discussion is indeed very interesting, because things pop up that puts everything in perspective. And making a distinction between a single and serial diving makes sense training wise, motivation wise and when talking about goals.

Very nice video by the way. Allthough one thought I had was how many young guys without knowledge has past away in history. But nice clip, and I get yout point.

Kars yout answer connects directly to something I was about to make a thread about ( ) and allmost included into this one, because it is so related. So we might as well discuss it here: A dive respons versus work response dilemma (oh no, not another dilemma ha ha). I have often wondered if some of the "heavy load" training, creating high puls, also might be desensitizing DR or just condition us to work response mode when diving. By work response I mean the kind of activating respons one gets when doing aerobic training (I've heard fx Sebastian Murat talk about this). Fx doing sprint crawl for 50 m followed by a 30-60 second static. This might help us cope with high CO2 and workload during apnea, but does it also confuse the body, conditioning apnea with workresponse??? Might be good for a spearfisher during rough conditions though. The opposite would be doing 1½ min. static activating DR, then dive 50 m at moderate speed I think, that would seem more dive respons conditioning.

Your thoughts about mentally starting dive respons before diving is also interesting...

".
Based on my experience, DR, whatever it includes, is trainable for serial diving(I don't do max dives). However, it is very hard to separate (and may make no real difference) training that strengthens DR from training that improves things that affect DR. For example. For me, getting the breathup just perfect strongly affects dive length, seems to strenthen DR. I think what is happening is achieving the optimal c02 level to maximize early onset of DR while still allowing a comfortable dive. Is that strengthening my DR or just setting the right conditions for it? I don't know.

Connor

I agree that setting right conditions and strengthening can be kind of the same. If however you find the optimal way to set the right conditions on the day of the dive, and keep that constant, we can look again I think on the degree of physical respons. You got me thinking of something though, and Kars also asked about what is DR: The Dive respons might be a much broader concept than just the three big physiological changes during the dive, it could include psychological aspects as well as more emotional changes (A read something on Nathalias blog once I think about the fine line between training hard, and on the flip side train in a way that creates/condition dislike, discomfort etc.).

Another thing I thought about is: Perhaps we have to do sub-optimal training for DR, just to be able to start freeding at all, to train big volumes, and most importantly to fool around and experiment with different stuff, and also get used to different aspects in smaller portions (differentiate different aspects).

If this discussion was to be kept more simpel, a focus on competition or recreational PB static and dynamic is a good starting point I think. However you are welcome to keep a broader perspective also, since very interesting stuff is generated.

This is indeed a very confusing subject. But I somehow also think it is a very basic question when choosing how to train. Less than perfect/optimal certainly can create good freedivers, but it's still nice I think to have a general idea about the logic/mechanisms behind ones training...

 

[baiyoke]

To be more to the point, consider also these (6 years old) comments. Without names, since I don't want to put people up against each other, especially not from old comments. It's just that these comments generate some reflection when put together:

When talking about training techniques, let's keep things in perspective. Personally I found that my best statics & dives happened while doing only one type of training: apnea hiking, nothing else.

Herbert Nitsch set his 111m CW record and his 9'04" static record doing only one type of training: apnea bike, nothing else.

This is not saying that wet forms of training don't work. It simply says you can reach unbelievable levels of performance with minimal wet training....

The more time you spend in the water, the better you tend to dive, but this is not only a result of improved dive reflex & adaptations, but also natural and instinctive improvements in your style & technique.

Specificity, specificity, specificity

Motivation, motivation, motivation

Safety, safety, safety

But some of you guys are suggesting:
cross-training because you can't get motivated to go the distance and because your approach is, relatively speaking, unsafe.

I can't buy into this.

You make it sound like rocket-science: CO2 tables, pyramid sets, bla, bla, bla. No wonder you can't find the optimal recipe.

Sorry..had a bad nights sleep, which means I'm a bit too tired and short today.

Training dynamics at or near maximum intensity has taken me up to some pretty decent distances. I can do about 4-6 days per week without symptoms of overtraining if I get adequate rest, though every now and then I need a few days off. Thought I'd mention this because it sounds like it is an unusual approach, at least for dynamics. However it has worked very well, to this point. I'm inclined to agree with what Sebastien has said previously about training specificity.

Overtrain the DR? Something I've wondered about. I do a few negatives at the beginning of every workout. When I started, I would get some extreme tingling in the hands and feet(30 second or less dives) It felt very much like a strong DR. If I did a dynamic immediatelly after, I could go very far, but with very much lactic acid burn in the legs. Now I don't get the tingles or as much lactic acid burn and can't go as far on the first dynamic. It is as if the negatives no longer kick in the DR nearly as well. Desensitized?

It all comes done to practice. The same way as a race drivers they do all kinds of exercieses but the most important is drving it self. You can't become a good free diver if you don't free dive.

Specific training is not always even possible. Imagine no-limits. Would anyone recommend a 200m dive every day? The diver would either die from DCS or suffer the long term chronic effects of nitrogen (bone necrosis, etc.)

.....

Do 100m sprinters train by doing just one rep of 100m every day? I don't think their legs could ever get strong by doing that... since they are not doing specific training, one could argue that a sprinter doing specific training could run 9.20 seconds in 100m, which seems a bit unrealistic.

All from this great 6 year old thread (that starts out about soomething else though).

http://forums.deeperblue.com/safety/71040-swb-reducing-risk.html

 

[monkeyhatfork]

U can make free diving as simple or as complicated as u choose, as for as the quotes 2 and 3 for me. I had a more in depth response but accidentally erased it, out of time gotta go diving.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

The question addressing desensitizing DR was addressed in that thread as well the solution being

The trick is to introduce variety to your training all the while maintaining specificity and intensity, e.g. start at the other end of the pool, less prep time, swim width then length

. This other quote as well as the quote on near max dyn say the most I think

When I was younger...many moons ago now, and doing track and field, I wondered what the optimal training program might look like if one wanted to maximize the rate of improvement in certain, purely physical parameters. Athletics is a fairly well explored sport science an dthere's a serious lot of stuff out there. I read all the english stuff. Had the German and Russian works translated. One thing was clear, there were as many opinions out there as there were coaches. But one thing was clear the guys on teh other side of the iron curtain were doing it different. They were using a high intensity specific training regime (government sponsored doping aside of course). The best of the lot, were essentially simultaing the very thing they were aiming to perform in, all but in bite size pieces. Swimming was the same. I tried their programs and the results were nothing but short of impressive. Not suprisingly sport science research corroborates this.

Anyway, any general form of fitess training will improve your breath-holding ability; some to a greater extent and faster than others. I have no interest in such wishy-washy recipes. I'm only concerned with maximizing performance to suit various specifc apnea activities; apnea is not simply apnea.

I intimately understand the idea promoted by Eric et al, and there are some real advantages, but limitations also, especially on muscular and nervous systems, which respond in very specific ways to training. In this respect, the dive response (% relative decrease in heart rate and vasoconstriction) and anaerobic metabolism, is what I'm referring to. For me freediving is still in its infancy, therefore, it is no surprise that people like Herbert are doing well. Indeed, you could achieve even better results by doing 'apnea cross-country skiing' rather than apnea bike, but that still wouldn't be the optimal training strategy.

We could argue the relative merits of each training strategy, but it would take more than a post on this thread to get the point across, and unfortunately I have not the time these days. Back to work for me!

The key word is Intensity! without it there is no forward progress just maintenance regardless of what training scheme u decide to follow. The problem in general with taking statements and quotes at face value is often proper context is not always there.

When talking about training techniques, let's keep things in perspective. Personally I found that my best statics & dives happened while doing only one type of training: apnea hiking, nothing else.

Herbert Nitsch set his 111m CW record and his 9'04" static record doing only one type of training: apnea bike, nothing else.

This is not saying that wet forms of training don't work. It simply says you can reach unbelievable levels of performance with minimal wet training....

The more time you spend in the water, the better you tend to dive, but this is not only a result of improved dive reflex & adaptations, but also natural and instinctive improvements in your style & technique.

sure but lets remember he has already logged huge amounts of water time and his in water skills already far surpass most people that will read the thread, this is someone pushing to the point of hitting a wall and making a tweak to overcome that next barrier, what worked for him at the time might be completely irrelevant to someone not facing the same barrier. Again go back to INTENSITY its not the fact that it was just apnea cycling, if u go out and do nice leisurely bike rides with an altered breathing pattern its not going to do much. As u have proven in you're posts there are several different camps of thought and since records have been set by any number of them lets look at the common denominator at the top levels "INTENSITY" what the average person does in training is basically maintenance and maybe some development of technique over time it will yield better performance but at a fraction of what would be possible if training high intensity. to truly move forward to the level of the people in these quotes i don't think it matters quit as much what u are doing but to what level are u willing to push, how much pain are u willing to overcome. When I used to do tables I was given the advice that u should always be working on the table u can't quit do and once u can do it its no longer helping u so advance right to the next. That holds true across the board i think if u want to make real high level progress. I would say the majority of people don't quit get to that point in training due to a lack of safety on a frequent enough basis to push as often as needed. But I think its important to remember when throwing around training ideas used by world class divers to recognize that ultimately the success lies in they're mental strength to push beyond the point the rest of us bail there is no secret formula thats gonna make everyone elite athletes but rather an incredible amount of work and pain and the ability to handle it. And don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the discussion after all its the point of the forum in the first place and as this sport is a work in progress the more questions and solutions the better off we'll all be just saying keep a bit of perspective. I think obsessing over too many variables can actually hinder progress

 

[Mullins]

Intensity

Pretty much.

 

[baiyoke]

Well, I fail to see how the matter of intensity clarify how to choose a general training regimen concerning dive respons, since it can be aplied to many different kinds of regimens...

I understand that you like intensive, specific training, but does that make us closer to answering the initial question?

The question addressing desensitizing DR was addressed in that thread as well the solution being.quote: "The trick is to introduce variety to your training all the while maintaining specificity and intensity, e.g. start at the other end of the pool, less prep time, swim width then lengt."

I think an interesting idea is presented, but no solution, since it is in no way explained, how it could be possible to not desensitize DR in the long run. Surely you can not just keep on and on just by adding more and more and more stress. In the end you would have people slap you and using tazers as warm-up...

However it makes me think if seasonal periodiztion might do the trick...

About intentsity as a sole recipe for progress: Taken too literally, I'm afraid most people would burn out quickly. But it might be what is needed at top level, I don't know. Perhaps that is what seperates the elite from the general. Still it doesn't answer the question of desensitizing DR, wich very intensive specific training might do. Or perhaps not. That's the question.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

Most people will burn out training very high intensity hence the separation between novice and world champions but it is the major factor at play when u are quoting champion level training. Which is all the more reason it might be silly to model training based on general quotes if u are likely to not implement the variables that made that training regime successful. Also as stated the full picture is not clear in a short quote like saying Herbert trained only apnea cycling because again that discounts the fact that he's already superior at his in water skills so its not realistic to say he got were he is dry training. If u wanna look only at dive response fine but thats not the major factor at play in the training quotes u gave.

 

[baiyoke]

I know, I was perhaps a bit too quick there... it's a bit confusing this topic, because it's impossible to disconnect from many other aspects.. it is highly interdependent...

To single out intensity does perhaps point to an important aspect in an optimal training regimen for max dives... But it can be aplied to both wet and dry training, specific as in compitition specific, but also when you split things up and single out components to train... So as a general advice on how to dive long, it is fine, but I just think it places people in jepardy of developing a weaker DR, if nothing else is added to the recipe...

Quoting WC level divers is not just to "make the perfect training regimen" and to copy that, but more a way of trying to understand how the human body responds to different kinds of training, what's possible and what is known to work (to a very high level).

 

[baiyoke]

Btw I think the question on how to avoid desensitizing DR might apply just as much to the guy or girl doing 100m and having a samba, as to the ones doing 200m. Allthough different mechanisms might be at play for the two groups, we don't really know.

I just wanted to hear if this is something people take into consideration when planning their repecrive training. But since only a few have commented, I still don't even know if it's a genuine problem or not, or a general problem. I've only got a few indications that it might be...

 

[monkeyhatfork]

but I just think it places people in jepardy of developing a weaker DR, if nothing else is added to the recipe..

if that were the case all the world record holders would have weak dive reflex and I highly doubt thats the case. If its working at the highest level of performance than it wouldn't appear to be a major issue

 

[Mullins]

Just train specifically. I haven't seen anything to indicate that the DR gets weaker with apnea training. On the contrary, virtually everybody gets better the more they dive. If you can't train specifically, cross training seems to work well too.