Conditioning and/or desensitizing dive respons?

[monkeyhatfork]

Btw I think the question on how to avoid desensitizing DR might apply just as much to the guy or girl doing 100m and having a samba, as to the ones doing 200m. Allthough different mechanisms might be at play for the two groups, we don't really know.

If u samba at 100m more likely u are just not strong at that distance yet if its a well established distance can't see DR weakening to the point of suddenly causing sambas u can force ur way to 100m dive reflex or no, can't imagine u get away with that on 200+ swims. Remenber too that the core of that thread was talking about the simple task of removing gear to extend the safety margin on a dive going wrong.

 

[baiyoke]

I haven't seen anything to indicate that the DR gets weaker with apnea training. On the contrary, virtually everybody gets better the more they dive.

Ok. A straight forward answer to take into account, in favor of the possibility that dive respons needs to be trained, and desensitization is not a problem. Thanks.

 

[trux]

Well, there are different opinions, and there are different aspects involved. If you read some works of Dr. Joulia, or Seb Murat, and others, they indeed do think that the DR wears out, better told it gets harder and harder to kick it in. In the same time, regular wet training helps stabilizing the DR, and to pull more out of it (for example by having higher lactic tolerance). Dr. Joulia worked with Steph Mifsud when he prepared his STA WR (11'35"), and the training was in bigger part dry, exactly for the reason of avoding the loss of diving response.

So on one hand you have athletes who try preserving the DR by avoiding exploiting it too much. They train a lot dry, or when they train wet, they avoid no-warm-up and preserve this shock-induced DR for competitions only. On the other hand I know very sucessful freedivers who start all their trainings with no-warm-up max attemps. And from what Dave wrote, it looks like he belongs rather to the second group than to the first one.

The conclusion is that you can likely become a top freediver in both ways. Whether one way is better than the other is hard to tell, but at this moment it does not look like there is any important difference.

 

[cdavis]

To say what Trux said, just a different way, there are two things going on.

1. You can fool the body into a strong DR with stress, but the body pretty quickly figures out its been fooled and the next dive or dives, the same stress will provide less DR. Its a technique that can be very useful for getting the last bit of performance.

2. Training strengthens DR and a lot of other things that look like DR. Intense and correctly directed training gives better training response, but just going diving a lot, especially if you are pushing your capacity and technique, works very well.

Number 1 on top of number 2 probably gives the best reponse of all.

Connor

 

[baiyoke]

Very interesting, thanks guys.

Number 1 on top of number 2 probably gives the best reponse of all.

Seems a difficult task, but perhaps possible.

I can't get the thought of periodization out of my head. Training DR in one period, then save it for a while, and then full on stressfull target dive.

Anyway, personally I'm beginning to think, maybe these issues apply mostly for people trained to a very high CO2 tolerance, being easier capable of reaching the point of BO, and therefore more dependent on an optimal DR. Not because it theretically does not apply to less experienced, but perhaps the methods involved are just too stressfull to handle for less experienced.... Or what do you think: Frequent no-warmup max dives for beginners and intermediate level divers as well, to maximize DR training/conditioning...? A road to succes or the road to sure, quick psychological meltdown???

 

[cdavis]

"maybe these issues apply mostly for people trained to a very high CO2 tolerance, being easier capable of reaching the point of BO, and therefore more dependent on an optimal DR."
Ack!. . . . No! no, a thousand times NO. For example, I focus on training DR improvement because in large part because my C02 tolerance is really poor. I'm a serial diver, stress as a way to improve serial diving makes little sense. Every diver who dives a lot or trains a lot is training(improving) his(her) DR. Its hard to separate from other, technique issues, but if it is trainable, that is what is happening.

Pardon my rant.

Connor

 

[baiyoke]

If I get you right, you mean that training DR is for everybody.

What I meant, is that the "fine tuning DR vs. desensitizing it"-issue is perhaps something not needed (or more correctly, it's too rough to train) at sub-elite level, especially since it incorperates stress and intensity together.

 

[baiyoke]

Btw remember that the main point of focus is that one long peak performance dive (competition dive; static dynamic or depth for that matter).