Dangers of dry apnea

[DiverTodd]

I blacked out while doing packing stretches seated at my computer. I would pack, hold for 10 seconds, then relax before attempting another. On the next attempt, I would increase the number of packs. Well, on my last one, I did THIRTY packs, relaxed into the hold...and came to on my side, lying on the floor. Whoops! The point is, with a black out during dry training, you WILL come around, it may just take a few minutes. Since then, as Mandy recommended (and does herself), I do my packing stretches LYING DOWN.

Todd

 

[trux]

Todd, I know that you are a great freediving enthusiast but in the same time rather new to freediving and with performances still in the intermediate level. I firmly believe that on this level, you should avoid so extreme packing as you do, or better yet avoid packing altogether. 30 packs is rather extreme and can cause you much worse harm than a bruise after falling from a chair. On your level you still have a lot of reserves elsewhere, and I'd really rather recommend avoiding packing. It is a quite dangerous and controversial technique. If a freediver decides for packing, he should progress extremely carefully and slowly - getting to 30 packs within a few weeks or months after starting with freediving is really a great hazard and you risk ruining your health and your freediving career as well.

There are several threads here on DB speaking about dangers and risks of packing, and some of them even at moderate packing, so I recommend reading through them. You should better use Uddiyana Bandha for the stretching and avoid packing altogether. You still have a lot of possibilities to improve your performance, so you better let the packing aside for couple of years when you exploit all other possibilities. Hopefully in that time there will be more scientific studies about packing and its risks available.

• http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/66867-new-theory-about-risk-freediving-dcs-airtrapping.html
• ImpulseAdventure - Freediving - Lung Squeeze
• freediving - squeeze
• Pneumomediastinum after lung packing.
• http://forums.deeperblue.net/specialist-advanced/65690-depth-pressure-squeeze.html
• http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-training-techniques/21577-how-safe-packing.html#post618592
• http://forums.deeperblue.net/spearo-board/65190-spearing-lung-packing.html
• http://forums.deeperblue.net/general-freediving/64645-packing-barotrauma.html

 

[DiverTodd]

Well, I only use packing as a stretching exercise, not while freediving. I don't find it comfortable at ALL to hold that much air in my lungs.

Todd

 

[trux]

It is still dangerous as stretching exercise too. Be sure to read through the linked threads. Why not stretching with Uddiyana Bandha instead?

 

[Fondueset]

Used to be a fad with high-school kids - take a deep breath and have somebody push on your chest until you black out. Not breakin any new ground with that one.

 

[trux]

Used to be a fad with high-school kids - take a deep breath and have somebody push on your chest until you black out. Not breakin any new ground with that one.

I am not speaking about the danger of blackout - that's a rather minor risk. There are more serious risks involved with packing that can lead to long term damage. You may find usefull rading the linked documents. I do not tell that packing necessarily always leads to those problems, but since the effects of repetitive and/or extrem packing are not well studied, I find that this technique is not suited for beginners or even intermediate freedivers, and that we should discourage them from applying it.

 

[Fondueset]

Sorry Trux - should've included a quote - wasnt' directed to you. Todd seemed to think he'd discovered something when he was fortunate enough not to hit his head on anything after blacking out in his chair.

Personally I'm more interested in the sort of approach Eric F talks about. I plan to experiment with it more in the spring and summer - when the warmer water and air allows longer surface intervals.

I agree with pretty much all you've said here.

 

[naiad]

I did a full inhale, sipped in more to the max, then pulled in around 5 packs, and started an intercostals stretching exercise, arms together over the head, then leaning to each side.

I know that pack stretching exercises are popular among freedivers, but I am not convinced that they are good. I can pack a lot, but when I do this I just keep still and don't start leaning to one side, arms over head etc. I know that if I did this it could result in pulled muscles or lung injury. I have often seen people complaining of pulled muscles and chest pain after doing this as a warmup exercise, and even blacking out and hitting their head on the floor.

I don't normally pack heavily for statics or dynamics. My best performances have been done with no packing, or just a few packs. It doesn't seem to increase my time or distance by much.

Lucia

 

[rabbithole]

All the dangers seems to come from holding your breath. Why not just practice taking deep breaths?

It is different when you are freediving becuase you have a certain reflex, right?

 

[trux]

If you are taking deep breaths underwater, it is usually called either scuba-diving or drowning (depending on the situation), not freediving. So practicing freediving by taking deep breaths you won't be training for freediving, but rather for drowning (or hyperventilation).

 

[rabbithole]

What would long can people hold a dry static?

 

[jome]

The dizzyness is caused by a drop in blood pressure. This happens because packing increases the resistance of the blood vessels in the lungs due to increased pressure, which restricts blood flow also to the brain temporarily.

This is also known as "packing blackout".

The best way to avoid is to:
-Make sure you are well hydrated (drink enough, get enough salt)
-Pack less
-Pack slower

This is a really frequently asked question and I think should always be mentioned when you teach someone packing.

The first of these is the biggest factor...Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.

P.S The world record in static apnea is over 9 minutes, unofficial over 10 (Tom Sietas) and french national record also over 10 minutes (Stephan Mifsud). Personally I don't find much difference in dry vs. wet static. At least with extreme packing and the lack of hydrostatic pressure, I think most of the "wet" benefits of the dive reflex are countered in such statics. The difference may be more pronounced without packing and especially in FRC statics.

 

[rabbithole]

The dizzyness is caused by a drop in blood pressure. This happens because packing increases the resistance of the blood vessels in the lungs due to increased pressure, which restricts blood flow also to the brain temporarily.

This is also known as "packing blackout".

The best way to avoid is to:
-Make sure you are well hydrated (drink enough, get enough salt)
-Pack less
-Pack slower

This is a really frequently asked question and I think should always be mentioned when you teach someone packing.

The first of these is the biggest factor...Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.

P.S The world record in static apnea is over 9 minutes, unofficial over 10 (Tom Sietas) and french national record also over 10 minutes (Stephan Mifsud). Personally I don't find much difference in dry vs. wet static. At least with extreme packing and the lack of hydrostatic pressure, I think most of the "wet" benefits of the dive reflex are countered in such statics. The difference may be more pronounced without packing and especially in FRC statics.

I want to make sure I heard this right. People can hold their breath out of water for over 10 minutes?

How do they do it?

Probably a lot of cardio and pranayama. Is this correct?

 

[rabbithole]

I just looked up Tom Sietas on wikipedia. It says a static apena is hold one's breath underwater.

I want to know how long someone can hold their breath on land. I can hold my breath for 2:15 minutes. I want to be able to do 4 minutes. Is this possible

 

[jome]

I want to make sure I heard this right. People can hold their breath out of water for over 10 minutes?

How do they do it?

Probably a lot of cardio and pranayama. Is this correct?

I don't know if anyone has made a dry static over 10 minutes. But from personal experience, you can pretty much achieve the same result wet or dry. My personal best is over 8 minutes so I'm sure someone has done more...In fact for me (and many others) the dry pb is better than wet. But there are people that have the opposite - nothing definitive.

What it takes is a lot of training. Personally I've never done any yoga but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. Cardio may help some for static, but the biggest gains are made from simply training breath holds. I know many excellent (7+) static guys who are not what I'd call in excellent cardio shape. I'm certainly no triathlete...

Just be careful when you train - please. Not without supervision in water and preferably not on dry either. Take it slow and gradual, try to accumulate experience instead of numbers - the results will come as a side effect of that...

 

[rabbithole]

I don't know if anyone has made a dry static over 10 minutes. But from personal experience, you can pretty much achieve the same result wet or dry. My personal best is over 8 minutes so I'm sure someone has done more...In fact for me (and many others) the dry pb is better than wet. But there are people that have the opposite - nothing definitive.

What it takes is a lot of training. Personally I've never done any yoga but I'm sure it doesn't hurt. Cardio may help some for static, but the biggest gains are made from simply training breath holds. I know many excellent (7+) static guys who are not what I'd call in excellent cardio shape. I'm certainly no triathlete...

Just be careful when you train - please. Not without supervision in water and preferably not on dry either. Take it slow and gradual, try to accumulate experience instead of numbers - the results will come as a side effect of that...

Thanks. I am not in a rush to get a higher breath hold time. I enjoy doing it so even if I don't have the highest time I am ok with that.

 

[foxfish]

jome, how long do the "deep" free divers hold their breath for - I mean the guys who are actually fining while breath holding?

 

[chrismar]

Dave's -110 constant weight and his 244m in the pool both took about four minutes, from memory. He's a bit slow though