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DCS type 1

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
One problem is that divers are discouraged from sharing any DCS incidents because the AIDA medical form for competitions asks the diver 'have you ever suffered DCS?' and if the answer is 'yes', then the diver is disqualified from competing in competition.

Are you sure Eric? It sounds quite harsh. I thought that if you answered YES to any of the medical conditions you could still compete with a doctor's certificate.

Also I'm assuming the medical form is the same for pool competitions, so this would mean that you couldn't even compete in pool comps if you had DCS in the past?

It's a different question whether previous DCS increases the risk but while I understand the point, i don't think it's right to exclude any medical conditions from the form to encourage more people to report DCS. In any case I suspect it boils down to liability at the end of the day so as usual with these things, medical forms are packed with anything remotely relevant.
 
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By the way it's a similar situation even with beginner freediving courses - you get someone turning up really excited and then they realise that even if they have had DCS from scuba diving 10 years ago they can't take the course unless they have a doctor's certificate, so more likely than not they'll end up just putting no on the form (which I guess all it does is shift the liability to them if something was to happen)
 
In 2005 when I started getting my first DCS problems, there was debate among the doctors as to whether it was DCS or not. Although most agreed that the pain in the joints was likely DCS, the tingling and numbness in fingers and toes was considered less conclusive. Also the skin sparking that I get after more severe cases has not (to my knowledge) routinely been reported by scuba divers. The skin sparking feels like small pin-pricks under the skin, happening at random times and at random places around the body. I believe it is caused by bubbles forcing themselves through small capillaries under the skin but I don't know for certain.

The finger/toe numbness is strange. What happens to me is that the left half or the right half of my finger goes numb, but not the other half. If it were caused by cold, the entire finger would go numb.

Also coldness is not a possible explanation because it often happens when I'm warm. I get out of the water, warm up, and by then my hands and feet are very warm. Then, suddenly and instantaneously, half of one finger or one toe goes numb/tingly. Then seconds later another half of another toe/finger goes numb, and this proceeds in sequence until several finger or toes have the problem. Further this never ever happens at any other time in my life.

In 2005 to gain further confidence about this symptom, I tried doing similar dive profiles, except modified the depth. I kept the same approximate dive time, same approximate surface interval, and this resulted in the same time in the water and same 'coldness' factor. Except for one thing; the finger/toe numb/tingling effect never ever happened on the shallow profiles, only on the deep ones. I would rule out expectation or placebo since
A) the problem first occurred without expectation
B) I doubt that belief that you will not get DCS can protect you from DCS

When I went into the recompression chamber in 2005, the skin sparking stopped immediately when the chamber was pressurized. The pain in my joints and knuckles persisted after the chamber session and it took many days for that to go away (presumably there was micro-damage that was semi permanent and needed healing).

In fact when the tingling/numbness first hit me in 2005, it was familiar. At that moment my first thought was that I had not felt that feeling since July 2001, when it happened after two consecutive dives to 71m with 12 minutes in between. Back then when I got the feeling I had no idea it was DCS.

Using these minor symptoms as a guide is what allowed me to analyze my own data and develop rules which now completely prevent me from ever getting any symptoms. If I ignored those symptoms and treated them as an unrelated effect, I would not have made any progress.

I have a high degree of confidence in the algorithm running in the Xen computer and I strongly believe that anyone following the computer will not get freediving DCS. However it could be 40 years until that fact is proven scientifically. In the mean time countless people will suffer crippling paralysis from DCS.

Even now, as Pipin is planning a dive to 183-220m, it is his choice whether he does a deco stop at 10m like Herbert did. Given Musimu's severe DCS from 209m with no deco, and Coste's severe DCS from 183m with no deco, it is obvious to me that deco is critical for such a dive. We can only hope and pray that Pipin does deco.

In fact, prior to Herbert's 214m dive, we both had experienced DCS several times and Herbert asked me what sort of deco strategy I thought would be sufficient on this dive. After discussion we both agreed that a 1 minute stop at 10m would be (intuitively) enough, followed by O2 at depth after-- and it seemed to work for him, unlike Musimu and Coste who got bent.
 
Out of curiosity, what type of deco do you think would be needed for the 1000ft NLT dive? Is there a model for trying to predict that or would it have to rely on intuition?
 
Just wanted to add two thoughts to this rather amazing discussion.
Before Peter Bennet died, he co-authored an article in the DAN magazine about DCS. The conclusion they came to was that the hits come from fast to semi-fast tissues, not the slow ones. These are the tissues most involved in freediving. And, when you think about it, it really makes sense. The slow tissues give off the gas even slower than they take it up. The most frustrating thing about the article is that nobody in the general dive community paid any attention to it, at least by 2007, the last time I was involved in bubble blowing.

The other was that Haldane had it right. As you get closer to the surface, the slower you have to go. It is a non-linear effect, based on the rate of change in presure, not on change of depth (a linear effect). Eric's comments show he build his algorithm on this concept. it goes agains the long standard SCUBA assumption that a constant rate of ascent is best, and that speed is what matters.
 
Hi Howard I'm trying to build my own specific tables. I'm using one minute for fast tissue and the sum of all dives for slow. Do you think I need to expand that?
 
If a dive REQUIRES scuba tanks is it still a FREE dive?

There are so called "purists" in archery, who refuse to accept compound bows with arrow rests and trigger release. And there are also purists in model sailplane pilots, who doesn't want engine because this is "cheating". To me, riding a sled down to 200m is cheating too. But then, my monofin could be considered cheating by some.
 
No dive requires a scuba tank. All freediving decompression can be done in apnea taking a single breath from the surface. In fact almost all my freediving deco is done in apnea. I either do:
A) apnea deco stop on the ascent
or
B) get to the surface, breathe for 60 seconds, then take a breath of air and go down for apnea deco
or
C) get to the surface, breathe for 60 seconds, take a breath of O2 or enriched air then go down for deco (I do up to 6 minutes of deco on one breath of O2)

Taking the enriched breath can be done from a compressed air source, or not. If you prefer not to use a compressed air source, you can fill a plastic 8L bottle with O2 and cut a small valve into the bottom and use water displacement to inhale the one breath.

If you find any type of deco objectionable, then freediving truly would be an extreme sport, with half of the high level competitors in wheelchairs for the rest of their life.
 
If a dive REQUIRES scuba tanks is it still a FREE dive?
The dive does not require any scuba tank, hence the dive is indeed a freedive. It is your health that requires it afterwards.

To me, riding a sled down to 200m is cheating too.
It is not cheating. It is a discipline. Cheating is when you take a sled for a CWT dive, or a monofin for a CNF dive. Just as there are disciplines for purists in sail modeling, or archery, there are disciplines for purists in freediving too.
 
> 90m, 80% O2 at 9m for 2min, followed by 80% O2 at 6m for 5min

Eric are you suggesting apnea deco for a >90m dive? So that's a >90m dive, followed by 60" breathe up and then a 7' static? (Or more if not on 02). Is that feasible? Also I thought 'bend and mend' was a compromise anyway?

Also, just don't compress the 02 and it's still 'free'? Seems a bit legalistic.

Trux:
Dive and BO at surface = disqualified!
Dive and bent at surface = disqualified?

I don't mean any disrespect to sleds, tanks, etc, but we're at the edges here guys.
 
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...but we're at the edges here guys.

This is the issue. When it comes to depth competitions these days, if no deco was allowed we would have hit the limit of how deep anyone can dive OR as Eric said, it would be a russian roulette on whether you take the risk and end up on a wheel chair.

So I guess since we're starting with the premise that we want to go deeper and that we don't want competitors to end up on wheelchairs, I think it's irrelevant whether there are tanks involved or whatever (I don't see any other option really). I would actually go the other way and make it mandatory for people to do a proper deco afterwards and not leave it up to them to choose what they do.

For recreational freediving like spearfishing like memo's dives I don't personally see even a problem to decompress before even surfacing if it makes things safer. What's the point of putting yourself at risk just to say that you made it to the surface on 'one breath' when your goal was to say catch fish at 40m.

Having said the above, personally I'd prefer to stay clear of any dive patterns that would need deco/tanks etc etc but that's a personal choice - if anyone wants to dive beyond those limits, they should just deco properly (whatever that entails).

Having more and more freedivers suffering DCS as we go deeper is not going to do any of us any good for sure.
 
Consider it a hybrid discipline if you want, but there are still huge advantages. I have a medical O2 bottle which contains 460 litres of compressed O2. I have it on a special float that I bring when I dive for fun. I routinely dive for fun in the 40-50m range and when the Xen calls for it I do O2 deco taking one breath at the surface and staying under for many minutes.

Using this method I can explore the zone of 30-50m all year long for hundreds and hundreds of dives, and the single bottle of 460L of O2 lasts more than a year. Plus I still have all the enjoyment of diving 'free' and without equipment when underwater.

Or, you could scuba dive to the same depths and the entire 430L tank would be used up in one day.

Plus, I don't have a regulator for the tank, nor do I need one, so there is no cost or expense related to the regulator or servicing it.
 
Eric are you suggesting apnea deco for a >90m dive? So that's a >90m dive, followed by 60" breathe up and then a 7' static? Is that feasible? Also I thought 'bend and mend' was a compromise anyway?

Generally, yes, that is what I am suggesting. Doing apnea deco immediately after 90m+ dives I can only manage about 4 minutes static on O2, but I can come up, take a few breaths then another O2 breath and descend again for more static time if necessary.

For shallower dives it is not difficult. At VB2011 I did a training session:
20m 4'20"
20m 5'19"
20m 5'19"
O2 (one breath)
6m 6'40" deco
21 minutes 38 seconds underwater total
 
Hi Bill,

Not sure about the one minute, but I'd bet that the "slow" should be secondary. Variable ascent rate should definitely be a part of it, despite minor obstacles like needing to breathe.

Hopefully Eric can add more on the basis for the algorhithms

BTW: not sure whether we'll make it to Hawaii this year. Terri is waiting for a new kidney, and we have no limeline on it.

Howard
 
As you get closer to the surface, the slower you have to go. It is a non-linear effect, based on the rate of change in presure, not on change of depth (a linear effect).

Hi Hteas,

Just to point out, because water can be considered incompressible over the range of depths freediver achieve, and because g, the gravitational constant, is essentially constant over these distance ranges too, that the equation for pressure vs. depth is actually linear:

If P= total pressure
D=depth
C= constant= g x density of water
A= atmospheric pressure

then P= CD + A

and if we differentiate:

d(P) = Cd(D)

i.e. rate of change of pressure is directly proportional to the rate of change (ascent or descent) of depth.

So rate of pressure change is linear with depth.

Did you mean that rate of change in pressure becomes larger relative to Total Pressure, P, as you ascend?
 
Hi Hteas,

Just to point out, because water can be considered incompressible over the range of depths freediver achieve, and because g, the gravitational constant, is essentially constant over these distance ranges too, that the equation for pressure vs. depth is actually linear:

If P= total pressure
D=depth
C= constant= g x density of water
A= atmospheric pressure

then P= CD + A

and if we differentiate:

d(P) = Cd(D)

i.e. rate of change of pressure is directly proportional to the rate of change (ascent or descent) of depth.

So rate of pressure change is linear with depth.

Did you mean that rate of change in pressure becomes larger relative to Total Pressure, P, as you ascend?

you should consider the fact that relative change in pressure is not linear, i.e. pressure doubles at first 10 meters and only increase 50% in next 10. Same goes with volume of air - if you consider cappilary depth tube you will know what I mean, tube won't be marked with regular intervals, marks for same depth increase would be getting shorter and shorter with depth. Your first 10 meters will take half of that tube length.
 
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