Depth simulation calculation on empty

[Erki]

This kind of calculation should include volume of nasal cavities, ears etc that need to be compensated. Otherwise you overestimate potential max depth.

 

[Simos]

Can you elaborate a bit on that?

Do you mean reverse pack + submersion?

Or reverse pack on land, doing stretching ecercises?

Or reverse pack in itself?

Anyone...

I don't have first hand experience but it's quite easy to get squeezed at very shallow depths (eg 5m) with reverse packing. Personally I am very careful even at 3-4m as I know I am definitely going to get squeezed so I don't even go full empty...

I remember reading somewhere an account of one of the top freedivers saying he would get more squeezes at 5m with reverse packing than on very deep dives (eg 80m...) - just goes to show...

 

[efattah]

Injury can easily be caused by reverse packing WITHOUT diving. That's how I injured myself, and that's how Alfredo injured himself too.

 

[Giobbi]

Eric; How (severe?) did you injured yourself? I mean, how would one know when your are in the red zone? Coughing is one sign?

 

[Simos]

Injury can easily be caused by reverse packing WITHOUT diving. That's how I injured myself, and that's how Alfredo injured himself too.

Did either of you pack prior to unpacking Eric?

 

[watts]

I think Jody Fisher got hurt from reverse packing as well.
I find the danger can come from contractions or any irregular movements while reverse packed. If i HV before and stay still im fine.

 

[efattah]

Did either of you pack prior to unpacking Eric?

I didn't do any packing before hand. I also got injured from doing nauli kriya (exhaling then doing uddiyana bandha and rolling the stomach muscles).

In both cases I got severe pain in the center of my chest, such that I could barely breathe for 2 days.

At the same time, I have many times successfully introduced rapid chest flexibility by successive dives to 20-30m on gradually reduced lung volumes (i.e. dive 25m full lungs, then 25m at 80%, 25m at 50%, 25m at 30%, 15%, 8%, then full exhale). This seems to be the best and safest method.

 

[baiyoke]

Another question on this subject:

If you want to do 80% exhale, 60, 40 etc... How do you do that in practice. Do you go by your "feeling of fullness" or what...?

I have experienced some difficulties getting the right exhale again and again. One dive too easy, next one way to difficult, even though I try to exhale ajust about the same amount.

Now I am thinking about bringing a bottle, marking it at 1 and 1,5 and 2 littres with a hole. Make a hole in the bottom. Fill it with water before dive (just submerge it), and exhale until bubles comes out from beneith (I can block the different holes).

But is that overkill, will most people get better at exhaling to app. same amount with practice?

 

[Simos]

Another question on this subject:

If you want to do 80% exhale, 60, 40 etc... How do you do that in practice. Do you go by your "feeling of fullness" or what...?

I have experienced some difficulties getting the right exhale again and again. One dive too easy, next one way to difficult, even though I try to exhale ajust about the same amount.

Now I am thinking about bringing a bottle, marking it at 1 and 1,5 and 2 littres with a hole. Make a hole in the bottom. Fill it with water before dive (just submerge it), and exhale until bubles comes out from beneith (I can block the different holes).

But is that overkill, will most people get better at exhaling to app. same amount with practice?

I am not that serious about training so I just do it by feeling more or less. Broadly speaking, I have 4-5 different 'states':

1. Max Full lung - full breath in filling all available air spaces (diaphragmatic, intercostal and clavicular)

2. 80% - normal deep breath in, let a bit of air out (should feel no 'pressure' on chest)

3. FRC (? At least in my head this is FRC) - deep breath in, 'sigh out' ie passive exhale

4. Near empty - same as above but with full (forced) exhale

5. Full empty - same as #4 but when I think i can't get more air out, I say something like my address to get the last bit of air out.

I don't pack or reverse pack and unless I've been training consistently, I don't even use 1, 4 or 5.

No idea if the above make any sense, sometimes if I am not diving full lung for buoyancy reasons (as opposed to training etc) I'll of course adjust accordingly

 

[aharon solomons]

We use a slightly different calculation to Eric's ,but essentially the principle is the same , we work on a VC of 6 lts and a RV of 1.5 lts, giving a TLC of 7.5 lts .We are working on RV being 25% of VC.But this is splitting hairs.
I thoroughly agree with Eric that reverse packing is dangerous .
The exercise we did in a 4 mt pool was a pull down on full exhale to RV on either a pole or rope , remaining in a vertical head down position with only the head touching the bottom ,when one could successfully equalise in this position on the bottom , on the next dive one exhaled again with the head touching the bottom and tried to equalise again , when one could equalise exhale equalise 3 times on the same dive the exercise was considered successfull.
Dry stretching, Udyhana - Packing ,does not in my opinion approach this . It is beneficial , far better than nothing but hard to quantify .
All these exercises are helpfull but do not be miss- led into believing that you will be immediately able to dive to the projected depths . Apnee s'entraine l'apnee. there is no substitute for depth training for adaptation to pressure. Allow sufficient time for this . See the Freedivers article on The Essentials of Deep diving at FREEDIVERS.NET | Aharon & MT Solomons Freediving Courses, Freediving Training, Courses Equipment and more…

 

[Simos]

We use a slightly different calculation to Eric's ,but essentially the principle is the same , we work on a VC of 6 lts and a RV of 1.5 lts, giving a TLC of 7.5 lts .We are working on RV being 25% of VC.But this is splitting hairs.
I thoroughly agree with Eric that reverse packing is dangerous .
The exercise we did in a 4 mt pool was a pull down on full exhale to RV on either a pole or rope , remaining in a vertical head down position with only the head touching the bottom ,when one could successfully equalise in this position on the bottom , on the next dive one exhaled again with the head touching the bottom and tried to equalise again , when one could equalise exhale equalise 3 times on the same dive the exercise was considered successfull.
Dry stretching, Udyhana - Packing ,does not in my opinion approach this . It is beneficial , far better than nothing but hard to quantify .
All these exercises are helpfull but do not be miss- led into believing that you will be immediately able to dive to the projected depths . Apnee s'entraine l'apnee. there is no substitute for depth training for adaptation to pressure. Allow sufficient time for this . See the Freedivers article on The Essentials of Deep diving at FREEDIVERS.NET | Aharon & MT Solomons Freediving Courses, Freediving Training, Courses Equipment and more…

Sorry didn't get the exercise Aharon - did you mean 3 times in the same session or indeed dive?

Also I am guessing the point was to get the air up and frenzel? As opposed to mouthfil...

 

[cdavis]

Baioke: Try exhaling all the way just before the dive, then inhaling to the desired level. I found it much easier to get a consistent amount of air with an inhale rather than exhale. Also, pick a level and stick with it, much easier to get consistent and the body adapts to the same amt of air.

Connor

 

[aharon solomons]

I have in these exercises absolutely no use for FRC it is too variable to quantify and the depths (4mts) too shallow to be usefull.
As I attempted to explain in my exercise ,at the bottom, in the same dive : exhale -equalise -exhale -equalise -exhale -equalise- ascend.

 

[aharon solomons]

Sorry didn't get the exercise Aharon - did you mean 3 times in the same session or indeed dive?

Also I am guessing the point was to get the air up and frenzel? As opposed to mouthfil...

As I said 3 times IN THE SAME DIVE. I actually said the same dive if you reread it.
No I am talking mouthfill , not Frenzel for at least 3 years we have not been using Frenzel in our mouthfill technique ,our technique is different and the tongue has no part in it ,but the cheeks are filled.

 

[baiyoke]

I am not that serious about training so I just do it by feeling more or less. Broadly speaking, I have 4-5 different 'states':

1. Max Full lung - full breath in filling all available air spaces (diaphragmatic, intercostal and clavicular)

2. 80% - normal deep breath in, let a bit of air out (should feel no 'pressure' on chest)

3. FRC (? At least in my head this is FRC) - deep breath in, 'sigh out' ie passive exhale

4. Near empty - same as above but with full (forced) exhale

5. Full empty - same as #4 but when I think i can't get more air out, I say something like my address to get the last bit of air out.

I don't pack or reverse pack and unless I've been training consistently, I don't even use 1, 4 or 5.

No idea if the above make any sense, sometimes if I am not diving full lung for buoyancy reasons (as opposed to training etc) I'll of course adjust accordingly

Makes perfect sense 1, 3, 4 and 5 are relatively easy, so the part I'm working on is 2, the area between FRC and full.

I'll try that Cdavis.. Thanks.

Aharon, not sure if it was a response for me, but nice drill there, I'll remember that and play with it when working on equalisation.

Has nobody tryed the exhaling in a botlle or bag stuff, before diving, as a measure of airvolume in lungs? Perhaps Eric he he?

 

[aharon solomons]

Makes perfect sense 1, 3, 4 and 5 are relatively easy, so the part I'm working on is 2, the area between FRC and full.

I'll try that Cdavis.. Thanks.

Aharon, not sure if it was a response for me, but nice drill there, I'll remember that and play with it when working on equalisation.

Has nobody tryed the exhaling in a botlle or bag stuff, before diving, as a measure of airvolume in lungs? Perhaps Eric he he?

I would resist the temptation to try and make these measurements empirical there are at best very variable and imprecise also in reality bear no real equivalent to actual depth . They are simply good exercises .
Forget the bag or bottle try a spirometer if that grabs you.
I repeat my exercise has zero value if it is done FRC or anything other than completely empty ,we have been doing it for years and so far no physiological problems with this .

 

[Simos]

I would resist the temptation to try and make these measurements empirical there are at best very variable and imprecise also in reality bear no real equivalent to actual depth . They are simply good exercises .
Forget the bag or bottle try a spirometer if that grabs you.
I repeat my exercise has zero value if it is done FRC or anything other than completely empty ,we have been doing it for years and so far no physiological problems with this .

For what it's worth I tried one of the bottle methods and it gave me really odd results - others have reported success so maybe I did something wrong but I'd second the spirometer suggestion if you want to have something reliable.

However for reference, there are threads on DB describing different methods if you wanted to try them - if you are married it's worth trying a few just to see the look on your wife's face when she walks in on you and finds you in a flooded bathroom, surrounded by plastic bottles, pans and pots of various sizes and blowing air using straws, snorkels etc into various of these containers. Works even better if you are naked. (maybe keep the fins and mask on)

 

[cdavis]

Simos, how is it that you have seen my wife's face?????

Connor

 

[Simos]

Simos, how is it that you have seen my wife's face?????

Connor

Lol - you should try doing the above more and more regularly the closer to Xmas it gets and creating a bigger and bigger mess. Amongst the whining and complaining about your lung volume, make sure you keep repeating 'I wouldn't have to do all this if I had a SPIROMETER' every time she complains and hopefully you'll get a nice Xmas pressie. ;-)

 

[baiyoke]

For what it's worth I tried one of the bottle methods and it gave me really odd results - others have reported success so maybe I did something wrong but I'd second the spirometer suggestion if you want to have something reliable.

However for reference, there are threads on DB describing different methods if you wanted to try them - if you are married it's worth trying a few just to see the look on your wife's face when she walks in on you and finds you in a flooded bathroom, surrounded by plastic bottles, pans and pots of various sizes and blowing air using straws, snorkels etc into various of these containers. Works even better if you are naked. (maybe keep the fins and mask on)

lol Simos rofl

Strange you got results, as it is done to NOT get odd results... Hmmm I'll try it next time and report back.