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Detecting Cheating in Freediving - Static

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Jorg said:
Keep in mind that professional athletes are being 'followed' everywhere they go.
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How much does this cost? Who pays? And if I am not mistaken, it's not that this stops them from doping.

re: ego, you are right.
 
rxcnc2 said:
How much does this cost? Who pays? And if I am not mistaken, it's not that this stops them from doping.
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This is normally paid by the national or international sports federation.

But then again, they don't have to pay the same prices as AIDA has to. For example, the 320 euro dopingtest AIDA has, costs only 110 euro's to do if you're an Olympic acknowledged sport. Special deals with doping tests about that one.

For example: Lance Armstrong returned to cycling in January this year. He already has 26 doping tests done on him!
 
In addition to Jorg's comments, there are other BIG problems with current AIDA anti-doping.

For example, take Vertical Blue 2009.

Several athletes set world records in the middle of the 10-day competition. However, anti-doping samples were only collected on the LAST day of the competition! This means that as much as 5 days elapsed from the record to the sample! If a record is set on day 1, then 10 days will elapse from the record to the sample!

I asked Grant Graves about this at the time, he said it was too expensive to do multiple tests. My reply is that you don't need multiple tests, only multiple samples. You only test the sample related to the record that is being applied for ratification.

For example,
day 5: athlete X makes world record #1, judge takes urine sample #1
day 9: athlete X attempts world record #2, fails
sample #1 is analyzed, record #1 ratified

What happened in Vertical blue 2009:
day 5: athlete X makes world record #1, no sample taken
day 9: athlete X attempts world record #2, fails, urine sample taken
sample analyzed, record #2 ratified, even though sample taken 4-5 days after record attempt
 
Reactions: TimoP
I like Kars' post. It condenses the discussion quite a bit.

I would add that records may only take place at public pools. This makes tampering a lot harder. I would also add that the face of the athlete has to be filmed continually from 45 minutes to OT till 5 min after the attempt.

Point 5) No exhaling, you might swallow some O2 container.
I can not see a practical way of doing this, swallowing an O2 container that is. It should be done at least 45 minutes before the attempt, because otherwise you would notice on the video. And how would you reliably get a small swallowed O2 container to give off the O2 at the desired time? It can be possible, but it would be highly unreliable and not very comfortable. It would also be highly dangerous, because if the container would give of the O2 at a too high rate, it could seriously injure your stomach.
It might be possible to find a substance that would give of O2 when in contact with stomach acid that is not poisonous, but than we go back to reliability. How can you make sure that it will give of the O2 at the desired time and at a rate that would still be controllable for the athlete?

Maybe someone else has an idea on this?

Point 9) Breathing through ears.
Doesn’t that imply you have a hole in your eardrum? That would be something that has to be noted on your medical for freediving anyway and is easily checkable. Just have the medic, who has to be present anyway, check the eardrums. No hole no problem. A hole, keep your ears down. But here I can be totally wrong.

Eric F is absolutely right by the way. Samples have to be taken immediately after the attempt. Just make sure the judges are there when the sample is taken, seal it and let the judges keep it in the fridge. Otherwise there is just no point in doing them at all.
 
Hey Kars ! .. great post !!

Just one thing came to my mind with regard to staying visible for 45 minutes prior to OT, although it is in the AIDA rules, but practicaly I've seen athelets (including myself) go to toilet to pee several times during this 45 minutes (keep in mind that as you warm up many of us would have to pee several times), what are we going to do with this, shall we keep some toilets in the designated athlete only area (Arjen's idea) that is only half human hight so the athlete face will be always visible and no suspicious activity could take place ? or should it be enough that the rest rooms are within the vicinity mentioned and they are checked prior to event starting ? .. don't ask me to pee in my suit or in the pool coz I ain't doing that ..

Oh yes, keep in mind that freediving competitions are not only for men .. and to be more general, you might need to do more than just peeing during the 45 minutes .. no green minds here please .. rofl
 
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Eric is right. Beta blockers, for instance, have half lives measured in hours. Waiting until the end of a comp or record attempt pretty much guarantees a clean doping sample. Even on a two day comp you'd probably be fine.

Some quick numbers for a certain beta blocker:
Standard dose: 20mg
Half Life: 1-2 hours
Amount after 8 hours: 0.078mg
Amount after 24 hours: 0.0000012mg
Amount after 5 days: 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000015mg

In other words, you'd probably detect it if the test was the same day, you'll likely struggle the next day and five days later, there's no chance at all. Of course some of these agents continue to break down outside of the body, so the tiny amount remaining will get even smaller while we wait for the samples to be tested. Then there's the B-sample, which could be months later.

Really, a quicker process around doping HAS to be in place.

Edit: After a quick search, I located a β1 blocker that has a half life of nine minutes. Luckily, it has to be taken intravenously just prior to when its needed. That should be pretty obvious to the judges...
 
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Q: does anybody know if melatonin has wanted/unwanted effects in relation to breath-hold?
 
efattah said:
What happened in Vertical blue 2009:
....
sample analyzed, record #2 ratified, even though sample taken 4-5 days after record attempt
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You probably meant record #1, but ok we get the picture. But this opens up another can of worms... namely that samples can be tampered with while they are waiting in some fridge.
 
Arjen,

Do please keep in mind practical implementation, and cost.

I don't think it's practical to stalk every freediver with a camera 45 min to official top. - How many camera people and camera's do you think one needs for a World Championship?

Taking the Doping sample right after the performance is already the practice with AIDA, but clearly by the Bahama's exemple it's not that strictly formulated /demanded by the rules. That too would be easy to implement.

Public pool.
The public pool may help, though I'm certain it can be tempered with too with some lubrication money. And please consider that public pools often have bad, dirty air, chlorine dirty water, alternating temperatures -. When Judges do their work good, and choose the preparation and attempt spot I'm confident it's secure enough to prevent enriched O2 air reaching the athlete.

Swallowed O2 container. I noticed with all the magician's records they were not holding their breath, but rather exhaled al the time while moving. In my view they move to mask their bringing up/ coming up of O2 from their bellies.
About the practical uses of O2 pills or timed mechanical device; people have learned to swallow all sorts of big objects, snooker balls, metal pieces, glass, swords, and quit a few dick's.
Banning exhaling during a breath-HOLD, would make O2 containers impractical.

Ear / tear duct breathing:
Both very rare remote possibilities (not proven practical), I just mentioned them to make the list cheat possibilities complete. Listing them helps to reinforce the argument for having the athlete to have a clear apnea with every orifice submerged until the end. O2 containers swallower's could not exhale their excessive air too.

Clearly the doping testing is very hard to do cheaply, providing enough certainty at a reasonable cost. Yes those labs are very commercial minded!

Genetic Alteration.
With the advancement of genetic altering medicine (even used in fish like salmon) it's going to be very difficult to keep our sport clear. When I ask myself if I would like to take the route of DNA sample taking, bio tracking passport, I have to say no. Too much information is too much power in institution hands with inevitable more than the public's interest in mind. - We the people should be able to check and alter or abolish our institutions.

If the Static Cheat list is complete and we've thought out all of the possible solutions, we can move on to the next discipline, Constant Weight (depth).
http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-competitions/83223-detecting-cheating-freediving-constant-weight.html

Thanks for your constructive contributions, I'm confident those will help AIDA to improve the regulations and our trust.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars
 
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efattah said:
However, anti-doping samples were only collected on the LAST day of the competition!
....
My reply is that you don't need multiple tests, only multiple samples. You only test the sample related to the record that is being applied for ratification.
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This is a very good example, how to do the same thing a little different way and get testing much more convincing. And so easy to put into the AIDA rules.

There should be more tests in trainings, not only in competitions. They use some kind of risk profiling in other sports, I think. There absolutely should be some - even just some per year in the world - surprice AIDA or WADA tests for top freedivers during trainings, so that test includes EPO and quick beta blockers. So there should be a real risk for those thinking to use those stuff, that they can be caught in a good surprise test. BTW at least in Finland also WADA/Finnish ADT has done tests also to top freedivers (as a part of diving antidoping program), and I think that included EPO and beta blockers, too. Why not to take WADA tests included also elsewhere, if not done so yet.

Banning exhaling during a breath-HOLD, would make O2 containers impractical.
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If you have packed too much (for relaxed performance) you maybe want to exhale a little out during the first minute. In the end many exhale a part of air out before surfing. Also because hard contractions a little amount of air can be pushed out, and you can't help it.
So there can't be so absolute rule not to exhale at all under water. Maybe it can be allowed it the beginning (the first minute) and in the end if having strong contractions, and near surfing. Maybe simply just:
If expectionally much air has been exhailed under water during the performance (a BIG amount and not just in the end), it's a red card.
Judges can see if it is a this kind of case, and it can be seen also in judge videos.

BTW if there are some tricks, easy to use to anybody and hard to detect, even if the rules will be changed, it maybe better to discuss about them only between AIDA judges in AIDA
 
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I agree with TimoP that banning any/all exhalation is too restrictive, but of course judgement calls based on "too much air exhaled" would just cause problems (how much is "too much"?). If the exhaled air could be captured it could be tested....this makes things pretty complicated though.
 
Surprise doping tests for the top freedivers may be an affordable way of diminishing the chance of doping use. However there should be clear boundaries. I think the priority lies with the world records. So people attempting those qualify. People attending WR status events, within a certain margin from the current WR, also qualify. The boundaries and categories can be expended when the AIDA finances allow and their is enough member support.

Banning exhale during breath-hold, making O2 containers impractical.
Timo your thought of over packing did come to my mind as well. I've have experienced it myself.
I've solved it by when I'm under just let my mouth fill up, and wait a bit (1-2 minutes) before taking the air back in.
To me this limitation just forces athletes to be a bit more precise with their packing.

On the heavy contractions in last struggle phase. I've not experienced those strong contractions, but I've seen people that did, but not many.

In all your 'minute of grace' (like the grace zone of 5m in dynamic) at the beginning and at the end could be sufficient; though I think the margins should be a little bit tighter, like 30 seconds.

Good points Timo, thanks.
 
This all has happend to me, so I'm a little worried about if there would be a too strict rule for that
Of course the amount of exhailed air by contractions is small. And in overpacking situation I have used that "pool mouth fill", too.

We must remember in every rule, that it is important that an athletic should not be DQ for a little reason, which has in fact no benefit for his/her performance, or is not a sign of BO. It's not good idea that - for a special rule for a magicians' trick - normal freedivers get DQ, because they didn't remember that special rule. But if somebody exhales a lot of air from start to end, there is surely something wrong with that performance.

I trust to judges, that they can see what is extraordinary much of exhaled air during a whole performance, if a big exhaling in the end is always permitted.
 
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Timo maybe you can think of a way to solve the swallowed O2 container thing better. Xray machines aren't obviously a workable practical solution. You've also to keep in mind that the magician (or his freediving friend.. borrowing his special O2 pills) will try to mask his exhale by very slowly, but continues, exhale through his mask - simulating a leaking mask. Now the Jury knows something is wrong, but it's going to be very hard to proof any wrongdoing without the xray test, the exhale limitation provides a stick the Jury can use.

With the 30 seconds at the start and end should be enough to facilitate the situation of overpacking and strong contractions.

Hear those brains racing in search of good solutions...

Kars
 
I don't think banning exhaling during statics is a good idea. Even a partial ban with time limits would make judging very jubjective.

I remember in some of Tom Sietas' static videos he exhales a long time before finishing the static. If that is what he needs to do to make himself feel more comfortable, then that should be ok. I, too have sometimes had the urge to exhale some air some time into a static. Exhaling is not cheating.

What kind of swallowed O2 containers do you know of? I can't think of anything offhand that would be practical.
 
I've got a 3 litre pony with 100% O2 in it.

You wouldn't need an x-ray to spot that if i swallowed it though!
 
To rules: Every competitor must be X-raied 5 min before OT of his/her apnea performance.
No thanks :blackeye

Judges can check just signs of using under water extra O2. Like SP is (one) sign, that there is not BO.
But there should be something about it in the rules like:
If extraordinary much of air is exhaled during the whole performance, it's a red card. Big exhalings in the end of performance (means about 1-2 min) are permitted.
I think, that freedivers really don't want some strict time limits, when they are allowed to exhale UW. Exhaling time limits would be one more thing to stress not to get DQ for a little meanless thing :rcard.

AIDA judges are clever people, they can see what is normal exhaling and what really is not. If they are not sure, they should give a white card, and that's right. But there must be a rule, so that they can give a red card if needed.

And about snorkel and rules, something like:
Judges check snorkel just before a freediver needs it (-45 min to OT) and snorkel must give to judges for checking immediately after (every time?) it has been used in warm-up or in start.
 
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I just want to have a clear rule, avoiding arguments at the spot. To much air, the whole 'breath-hold' is a little to vague. I try to avoid the 'samba-rule' troubles of the past.
How would you as a judge proof your case?

Since it's hard and expensive to proof the trick, we need an artificial barrier. Envision a diver holds say 8-10 Litres of air, he can exhale pretty much if you like to; where do we put the line?

At the moment it may sound like using an cannon to kill a lonely fly, so I guess the 'non boundaries excessive exhale rule' provides enough stick to fend of those magicians.

- note: exhaling so much air would lower the floating body of the diver, so the Judges can check that as well.

Kars
 
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Arjen said:
Don't you know there are only two types of freedivers? The ones that pee in there suits and the ones that lie about it.:t
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rofl .. rofl

Oh come on Arjen ! .. you know there is an exception for every rule, I am one exception .. .. appearently there isn't many .. .. my God !!
 
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