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Discussion on hypothesized ancestral human cyclical ARC dive-foraging

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
You want to talk about freediving?

Wow. First time.

Ok, the thread title is Diving & Surfacing efficiently.
Do you actually want to talk about freediving or have a constructive discussion about it? Because to me it seems that you do not.


Could you please explain to me in a few easy to understand sentences what the last 4 pages of posts actually have to do with freediving, because I’m at a total loss here. That is maybe because I’m very stupid. Always a possibility.

To go into the skin colour and vitamin-D, you brought it up and I was merely trying to add some information from a good source. You are probably upset because it is in contrast with some of your claims and the easiest way to refute the information for you is to either discredit the person who wrote it or to change the subject.

@admin: Do we actually have to keep this post in the science section? This thread has little to do with either science or a normal discussion. It gives this thread a false sense of credibility. Do we want that in this part of the forum, where there are also a few very good science pieces?


 
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Skin color and sexual selection via male choice


Wow, you did it again. Not a single reference to Diving and Surfacing efficiently.

Take a break.

When you're ready to discuss Diving & Surfacing efficiently, let me know.

Ciao.
 
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Wow, you did it again. Not a single reference to Diving and Surfacing efficiently.

Dood, you like get the gold medal for being egocentric, arrogant and ignorant all at the same time.

Take a break.

When you're ready to discuss Diving & Surfacing efficiently, let me know.

Ciao.

Is there an echo in here?

I’m sorry, but are you also capable to try to debate with me in a normal tone? Or actually answer questions that have been raised? You do not even have to answer mine, but could answer questions raised by Dave Mullins or Trux for example. Or is this all you have left? Seems a little week by my standards. Even if my standards are quite low already.
 
Wow, you did it again. Not a single reference to DSE.

Dood, you like get the gold medal for being egocentric, arrogant and ignorant all at the same time.

Take a break.

When you're ready to discuss DSE, let me know.

Ciao.

You aren't discussing DSE ( I refuse to parrot your favourite phrase which you seem to feel the need to use word-for-word OVER AND OVER) in 90% of your posts, and you rarely make any reference to freediving. Explain.
 
Just leave it, guys. Wet is a believer, not a scientist. A scientist could be persuaded by reasoned argument, whereas a believer is unshakable. He isn't interested in debate, nor is consideration of other possibilities. Just like creationists, flat-earthers and moon landing conspiracy-theorists, most AAT enthusiasts are happy to defend their position with their hands over their ears and at the top of their voice. Arjen brings up some interesting research that I hadn't seen before, but there is no place for logic and reason in this thread, hence trux, Mullins & others leaving and why most others, myself included, could happily refute claims but simply don't bother.

One thing I will say in wet's favor is that at least he's pissing in his own corner, rather than filling other threads with this stuff.
 
This is not about DSE, wet! You are violating your own main criticism of all other posters in this thread. Please get back on the subject!
Actually, what the hell IS the point of those three links? They're about apes and laughter, which may have been inherited by a common ancestor of apes & humans, but I see nothing in the three articles of interest to ANYTHING discussed here. I haven't bothered to read many of the links here, but have they all been this irrelevant?
 
"Nitric Oxide (NO) is involved in the development of the bonding and smell recognition that occurs in ewes within 2 hour of giving birth. Inhibition of nNOS blocks formation of that olfactory memory, and this blockage can be reversed by infusion of NO into the olfactory bulb. [37] Oxytocin is essential in the formation of normal social attachment in mice. [38] Reduction in oxytocin release following epidural anesthesia in heifers preceded a reduction in maternal bonding type behaviors[39]. Activation of the oxytocin receptor causes activation of nitric oxide synthase. [40] The connections that mediate maternal bonding can occur in the space of a few hours[41], limiting the distance over which axons must migrate to form these new connections."
-

This sounds like good confirmation that the post-partum maternal-infant bond was strengthened via the backfloating/reclining mother humming (singing with mouth closed, producing nasal Nitric Oxide in Paranasal sinuses) into the face of the nasal-inhaling oral-feeding infant, transmitting antibiotic NO (killing airway microbial pathogens while simultaneously increasing the social bond and smell recognition and axonal development), typical in mammals but usually thought weaker in hominoids due to decreased olfactional abilities. This correlates to facial hair loss (prevents NO diffusion) in post-pubescent pre-menopause females, plausibly non-pathological hypothryroidy, long scalp hair, infant clinging ability. It also fits with childhood mumps being correlated to post-weaned (no more direct facial NO transmission) pre-pubertal assistive dive-foraging in shallow waters, better hydrodynamic sub-mandible profile due to enlargement of the salivary parotid glands.

Chicken pox and measles also occur at this time period, but I don't know what possible advantage they might have provided to human ancestors 1ma, if any, possibly chicken pox was a factor in saltwater immersion or sweating.

Newborns don't weep tears nor eccrine sweat AFAIK, possibly respiratory NO from the mother is required, for some unknown reason. Gorilla mothers transmit NO to their newborns due to their nasal breathing with circular laryngeal air sac breathing producing a guttaral vocal chord vibration (similar to their inhaled/exhaled laughter, unlike human exhale-only laughter). This is why human mothers must hum to newborns to transmit NO as human ancestors lost the laryngeal air sac and circular breathing during the transition from upright float-sit-foraging to upright-pluck-foraging to dive-forage-backfloating. Other ape mothers wheeze (vocalize) in and out while looking down nursing, human mothers hum outwards nasally or sing lullabies (language uses many partial hum-sounds in speech such as -m-n-r-l-s-sh, some implosive, some expulsive.

Formation of olfactory memories mediated by nitric...[Nature. 1997] - PubMed Result
Hat tip to Daedulus at: Stranger than you can imagine

37. Kendrick KM, Guevara-Guzman R, Zorrilla J, Hinton MR, Broad KD, Mimmack M, Ohkura S. Formation of olfactory memories mediated by nitric oxide. Nature. 1997 Aug 14;388(6643):670-4.

38. Jennifer N. Ferguson, J. Matthew Aldag, Thomas R. Insel, and Larry J. Young. Oxytocin in the medial amygdale is essential for social recognition in the mouse. Journal Neuroscience, October 15, 2001, 21 (20):8278-8285.

39. G. L. Williams, O. S. Gazal, L. S. Leshin, R. L. Stanko, and L. L. Anderson. Physiological regulation of maternal behavior in heifers Biology of Reproduction 65, 295-300 (2001).

40. Gerald Gimpl and Falk Fahrenholz. The oxytocin receptor system: structure, function, and regulation. Physiological reviews vol. 81, No. 2, 629-683, April 2001.

41. Okere CO, Kaba H. Increased expression of neuronal nitric oxide synthase mRNA in the accessory olfactory bulb during the formation of olfactory recognition memory in mice. Eur J Neurosci. 2000 Dec;12(12):4552-6.
-
ps. This is not medical advice, it is research into hypothesized archaic seashore human ancestor dive-forager behavior and physiology. Consult your primary care physician for questions on the role of Nitric Oxide in breast feeding of newborns.

Also of potential interest: Role of low basal NO in ... vascular abnormalities
Stranger than you can imagine: Role of low basal NO in capillary and vascular abnormalities
 
Actually, what the hell IS the point of those three links? They're about apes and laughter, which may have been inherited by a common ancestor of apes & humans, but I see nothing in the three articles of interest to ANYTHING discussed here. I haven't bothered to read many of the links here, but have they all been this irrelevant?

See the post on Nitric Oxide. It links circular breathing (apes with laryngeal air sacs never dive), humming in human mothers with newborns while reclining/backfloating, studies on the protective and brain axon growth function of Nitric Oxide, etc.

(It obviously has a lot to do with Diving and Surfacing efficiently.)

Also see Dive Song and Clicking & Humming regarding dive partnership communication and synchronization.
 
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Actually, what the hell IS the point of those three links? They're about apes and laughter, which may have been inherited by a common ancestor of apes & humans, but I see nothing in the three articles of interest to ANYTHING discussed here. I haven't bothered to read many of the links here, but have they all been this irrelevant?
Prety much, yes.

wet said:
This sounds like good confirmation that the post-partum maternal-infant bond was strengthened via the backfloating/reclining mother humming
Sounds good, but no one, except you, says there is such a link in any of these studies anywhere. You are linking up scientific studies about totally different subjects to your pet project without any evidence again. Nowhere is it said that NO has any antibiotic capacities. Nowhere in the mentioned studies does anyone say anything about DSE. It is mainly about studies in mice. So in three easy sentences, without any difficult words, WTF has this to do with DSE!

wet said:
Chicken pox and measles also occur at this time period, but I don't know what possible advantage they might have provided to human ancestors
Might there be a possibility that chicken pox and measles are mostly not very beneficial for humans, but very beneficial for the chicken pox and measles viruses?
 
You aren't discussing DSE ( I refuse to parrot your favourite phrase which you seem to feel the need to use word-for-word OVER AND OVER) in 90% of your posts, and you rarely make any reference to freediving. Explain.

DSE?:confused:

Re: Diving & Surfacing efficiently ?
 
Re: Diving & Surfacing efficiently

This title specifically refers to the hypothesized ancestral human cyclical ARC dive-foraging - backfloating pattern, as indicated/interpreted by multiple lines of evidence (see past posts), and systematic advantage over non-cyclical dive-foraging (which I consider to be more risky and less productive in terms of efficiency though not necessarily less effective).

The human body runs a circadian clock system, but there are numerous 'adjustable local clocks' within the overall system which are affected by different stimuli (eg. sleep time, food digestion). That is how cyclical diving would preferably be viewed, not as one single cycle, but as cooperative intermeshing cycles.

Explained.
 
Questions on NO:

See page 3 of this paper:
Primarily nasal origin of exhaled nitric oxide and absence in Kartagener’s syndrome
JM Lundberg*, E. Weitzberg**, SL Nordvall # , R. Kuylenstierna

antibiotic Nitric Oxide lundberg - Google Scholar

SpringerLink - Journal Article
Wet, again you are not reading what the articles acually say and distorting it to what you want them to say. Nowhere in the articles is there anything mentioned that NO has any antibiotic capacities. NO may have anti-inflammatory and proinflammatory effects. Nasal NO measurement may be used in the noninvasive diagnosis and monitoring of nasal disease. Nothing more.

Now over to Kartagener Syndrome. Primary ciliary dyskinesia (PCD), also known as immotile ciliary syndrome or Kartagener Syndrome (KS), is a rare, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciliopathy"]ciliopathic[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosomal_recessive"]autosomal recessive[/ame] [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_disorder"]genetic disorder[/ame] that causes a defect in the action of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cilia"]cilia[/ame] lining the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_tract"]respiratory tract[/ame] (lower and upper, sinuses, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eustachian_tube"]Eustachian tube[/ame], [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ear"]middle ear[/ame]) and [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallopian_tube"]fallopian tube[/ame]. Again, why are you bringing a very rare genetic disorder into the discussion and make it look like a normal disease in this discussion. You are distorting and twisting factual information again to suit your predefined conclusions and leaving out all the information that does not fit your theory. Which is quite a lot lately.

And again, this is not about freediving or diving and surfacing efficiently (DSE). Please do stick to the subject or start a new thread. Otherwise it gets very difficult for us to understand what you are trying to explain to us.
 
Guys,

I have changed the title of this thread from "Diving and Surfacing Efficiently" to "Discussion on hypothesized ancestral human cyclical ARC dive-foraging". In the moderator's opinion the title Diving and Surfacing Efficiently is misleading given the topics of discusson and the context of a freediving forum, ie. in freediving discussions, the term diving and surfacing efficiently typically refers to a freediver leaving the surface efficiently (for example a good duck dive) and returning efficiently (eg. ascent speed, releasing air etc).

Please keep to DeeperBlue's forum rules and respect the rest of the forum members.

Thanks,
Ben
 
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