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Discussion on hypothesized ancestral human cyclical ARC dive-foraging

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Your theory on skull design being related to an eveloutionary addaptation to free diving for food would seem counter intuitive of evolutionary development from previously land adapted species. Let us say for argument that it was a water habitat trait would that not then be a de-evelutionary trait? Just a thought for polite conversation.


Dolphins didn't de-evolve when they returned full-time to the sea, but evolved some brand new traits of food foraging, (more streamlined) locomotion, breathing, sleeping, hearing, vocalizing, etc. Some of these new traits were quite similar to other marine mammals, others were unique to dolphins and derived from or overlapped with their terrestrial traits but applied in water.

Humans didn't de-evolve when they returned part-time to the sea, but evolved brand new traits of food foraging, (more streamlined) locomotion, breathing, sleeping, hearing, vocalizing, etc. Some of these new traits were quite similar to other marine mammals, others were unique to humans and derived from or overlapped with their terrestrial traits but applied in water or at waterside.

Even during the most aquatic period, humans were primarily land based, being only part-time divers, while dolphins became completely water based full-time divers; both remained lung breathing, not gill breathing. Among living hominoids, only humans (+ancestors) dive and swim regularly, the others are rainforest tree dwellers that only wade on occasion and avoid putting the face underwater and probably can't hold their breath for more than 20 seconds when foraging for food, unlike humans.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAT/message/49345
 
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You were given information which included videos of infants swimming and backfloating.

As a father I introduced both my sons to water, swimming and diving pretty early in their lives. Within their first few months of life they were used to having their heads under water, holding their breaths but I did not observe anytime that they would have survived if they had fallen in a swimming pool or something similar. In my experience their swimming and diving abilities were taught.

I have seen a few programs on tv about introducing babies to swimming and diving and although the results are excellent, the approach is a gradient scale of taught abilities.

Judge
 
Human newborns can hold their breath while swimming underwater, as can dolphin newborns, in association with a parent, chimp newborns cannot. Human newborns on land cannot crawl, walk or climb.

If human newborns are not consistently associated with swimming from day one, they lose the effortless ability to swim and breath hold, in association with the mother or father. When they are later taught to swim, after having adapted to land crawling and small bath tubs, they are confused by the different effects of gravity and buoyancy in open water, especially swimming pools, which appear visually like drop-off cliffs (newborns have poorer vision and have no discernment of a visual drop-off cliff).

Human ancestors a million years ago resided at tropical lagoon shores, (not tropical rainforests or open plains), so constantly reinforced experiences of both gravity and buoyancy was present; there was no temporal gap between newborn (untaught) breath-hold swimming and later taught lessons in swimming pools. Today there is, due to the huge changes in technology, a situation where infants may play computer games before they can walk or talk, it is hard to see the path our species has followed, but most of the footprints are along the shoreline.
 
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A thought on hydrodynamics and stroke form. [No fins or mask etc.]

There are quite a variety of swimming strokes.

In considering the hypothetical ancestral dive foraging situation, in addition to the typical strokes that might be expected based on today's swimming and diving:

Reverse Dolphin: Body linear, feet stretched to points, feet forward movement, propelled by arms and cupped hands sculling from hips upwards and beyond head, alternating with whole body undulations where upper chest and arms act as a dolphin tail, propelling body backwards.

Sea otter paddle: Sea otters have enlarged outside toes (pinkies) and smaller big toes (hallux) than humans (who walk, run and climb bipedally where a large hallux is significant), therefore the sea otter has more relative power to the paddle function. If a human diver mimicked this outside hallux position, it might have been more efficient at times. Body forward linear, with ankles crossed and pointed to minimise profile, so that the hallux (big toe) is on the outside of the "fin" rather than the more normal inside position. The stroke would slightly resemble a thuniform tail shape like a dolphin, but would probably be limited to slow movement while visually scanning horizontally at depth rather than while diving vertically.
 
Walruses are world's most unusual snoozers - Discovery.com- msnbc.com

Apnea sleeping walruses: at water surface with inflated pharyngeal air sac, on sea bottom with deflated pharyngeal air sac, unihemispherically (like dolphins, swimming while half asleep), hanging from icefloes semisubmersed.
AFAIK they never backfloat while sleeping, unlike sea otters.

http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-science/82096-freediving-leading-sleep-apnea.html
Sleep apnea and dive apnea

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026775.600-seals-muscles-hide-a-builtin-scuba-tank-.html
Elephant seals in sleep apnea and dive apnea

Whales and dolphins sleeping: http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080221/full/news.2008.613.html
 
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Indirect items

http://www.translatingautism.com/2009/03/hyperbaric-treatment-for-children-with.html

The authors found that hyperbaric treatment resulted in significant improvements in overall functioning, receptive language, social interaction, and eye contact. These findings were affected by the age of the child, in that children over the age of 5 showed more improvement to the treatment than children under 5. In addition, the treatment did not seem to work for children with an initial ADOS score above 50th percentile. This indicates that the treatment is most effective with children with more severe autism (ADOS score below the 50th percentile).

change in pressure affecting autism, this reminds me of Temple Grandin's mention of sensitivity to physical pressure and autism, she wrote a book about her experience having autism.

Might be relevant to the sensation of submersion in water, do these kids easily learn how to swim? Fear of water/drowning may manifest outside of physical water, some autistic kids sit and watch water flowing out of a faucet for hours. What is effect of water pressure on face (trigeminal nerves, eye region), cold temperature changes, comfort in shower/bath, breath holding, genes?

--
Sea sickness may be less about internal nerve dissonance than about posture.
Having a wide stance reduces incidents of sea sickness drastically, as does being in water.
---
Salamander/frog skin breathing, icefish lack of RBCs.
Breathing in the bitter cold: lungless frogs and a fish without erythrocytes Evolving Ideas
 
"each person has an optimal running pace that uses the least amount of oxygen to cover a given distance." = diving O2 efficiency/conservation. Savannah animals either walk (efficient O2 consumption per meter) or run short distances at a unsustainable higher speed (inefficient O2 consumption, overheating). (Not referring to top-speed anaerobic sprints, just moderate aerobic running. Athletic humans can run along shores (abundant water, salt electrolytes) for very long distances without rest, athletic horses can't run for very long distances).

Perfect Running Pace Revealed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090329/sc_livescience/perfectrunningpacerevealed
Dan Peterson
LiveScience's Sports Columnist
LiveScience.com dan Peterson
livescience's Sports Columnist
livescience.com – Sun Mar 29, 10:15 am ET

Most regular runners can tell you when they reach that perfect equilibrium of speed and comfort. The legs are loose, the heart is pumping and it feels like you could run at this pace forever.

Researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison now have an explanation for this state of running nirvana, and we can thank our ancestors and some evolutionary biology for it.

For years, it has been thought that humans have a constant metabolic energy rate. It was assumed that you would require the same total energy to run one mile, no matter if you ran it in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. Even though your energy burn rate would be higher at faster speeds, you would get there in half the time.

Turns out, however, that each person has an optimal running pace that uses the least amount of oxygen to cover a given distance. The findings, by Karen Steudel, a zoology professor at Wisconsin, and Cara Wall-Scheffler of Seattle
Pacific University, are detailed in latest online edition of the Journal of Human Evolution.

Steudel's team tested both male and female runners at six different speeds on a treadmill while measuring their oxygen intake and carbon dioxide output. As expected, each runner had different levels of fitness and oxygen use but there
were ideal speeds for each runner that required the least amount of energy.

Overall, the optimal speeds for the group were about 8.3 mph (13.4kph) (about a 7:13 minutes per mile) for males and 6.5 mph (9:08 min/mile) for females.

The most interesting finding: At slower speeds, about 4.5 mph (13 min/mile), the metabolic efficiency was at its lowest. Steudel explains that at this speed, halfway between a walk and a jog, the runner's gait can be awkward and unnatural.

"What that means is that there is an optimal speed that will get you there the cheapest," Steudel says.

So, why is a zoology professor studying running efficiency? Steudel's previous work has tried to build a theory of why our early ancestors evolved from moving on four limbs to two limbs, also known as bipedalism. She has found that human walking is a more efficient method of getting from point A to point B than on all fours. It might also have been an advantage for hunting.

[When chimpanzees hunt, they chase antelope or monkeys while on all fours (quadrupedal) and bite their prey with their large canine teeth, but when spearing small primates in tree hollows (not chasing, just probing and stabbing downwards), they tend to maintain an upright posture. Savanna chimps may walk bipedal briefly (especially when crossing shallow water), but do not run bipedally, nor run quadrupedally long distances, and of course, cannot swim or dive. Although I haven't found specific evidence, it seems they cannot hold their breath except briefly.]
 
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(From the local Eco-newspaper)

Water from the English Channel is being bottled and sold as a remedy for stuffed
noses in the US. The water is taken from a busy shipping lane. The drug company selling Afrin PureSea Hydrating Nasal Rinse - for about $15.00 a bottle - adds that it is "the only nasal rinse product made of 100% purified seawater".

UNBELIEVABLE.
 
Water from the English Channel is being bottled and sold as a remedy for stuffed
noses in the US. The water is taken from a busy shipping lane. The drug company selling Afrin PureSea Hydrating Nasal Rinse - for about $15.00 a bottle - adds that it is "the only nasal rinse product made of 100% purified seawater".
Another april fools joke? On the other hand, if you consider all the chemicals that are in the water there, it must be quite a powerful drug, so I wouldn't wonder.
 
Cited from: NorthCoast Environmental Center: 'Eco News' paper.

Seems legit, no joke. Hopefully it doesn't smell like diesel fuel.

(Maybe the channel is cleaner than I'd thought. I was just thinking of all the traffic.)

http://www.afrinpuresea.com/afrinpuresea/index.jsp

I would have expected some local Coastal firms to bottle seawater as well. Ocean-in-a-bottle?ale...
 
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Apnea (dive) rhythmic clicking & eupnea (backfloat) tonal humming in music & aquatic stereo code transmission

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idhuCr64mSo]YouTube - -----DASH----- Beatbox Tutorial - Helicopter Click Roll[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_CQXquT57s&feature=related]YouTube - -----DASH----- Beatbox Tutorial - Tongue Clap Technique[/ame]

Anyone interested in making a video documentary about ARC freedive communication, contact me.
 
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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgN_bD9Oqc&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - "Water Babies" - The Aquatic Ape Theory of Evolution, part 1/5[/ame]
 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U0VXzpmQes&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - "Water Babies" - The Aquatic Ape Theory of Evolution, part 5/5[/ame]

There are four primates that wade, swim and dive at least occasionally: Crab eating macaques, Proboscis monkeys, Allen's swamp monkeys, and humans.

There are four primate/hominoid/hominids (great ape genetic kin) that enter water wading while foraging: Lowland gorillas, Chimpanzees, Orangutans and humans. Of these only humans swim & dive, the others have flotation laryngeal air sacs.

There is one primate/hominoid/hominid/hominin that wades, swims, dives and backfloats: humans; and human ancestors after the split with the other hominoid/hominids.

Backfloating is seen in sea otters, marine otters and humans, and occasionally (but not regularly) in marine mammals.

Human ancestors one million years ago favored living at sunwarmed crescent-shaped pocket beach bays and lagoons surrounded by vertical sea cliffs (from a C shape cove beach to a U shape lagoon estuary) and offshore sea reefs (rocky oyster reef, sand bar, coral reef) . This gave protection against fast large predators, especially at night; reefs provided sites for seafood and reduced surf and storm waves, as did associated tidal mangrove/estuary woodlands and wetlands.

Their various shelters may have included palm-top nests, sea caves and beachcombed driftwood-reed-palm frond "beaver lodge" dome huts, with mud and seaweed plastered on the exterior, above a hand-dug sand pit, with a side entry hole. Easily made by simply adding sticks around a shallow hole and then tightening the circle at head-height, interweaving the reeds and fronds as apes do in the rainforest tree canopy, then adding a reed bundle mat floor and a small air or smoke hole at the top center. Rather similar to a beaver lodge, an igloo, a bush hut.

Sea otters sleep on the water, marine otters sleep at shoreside rock & dirt dens, these may have been used too, perhaps temporarily.

During the stormy rainy season when flooding waters got muddy, treks inland would be made to gather seasonal foods from forest and savanna, the huts may have been left to eventually wash away in the floods.
 
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Yahoo! Groups

The function of 'click' underwater communication is shared in aquatic dwarf frogs, dolphins and odontocete whales, and human ancestors at seashores a million years ago.

"African aquatic dwarf frogs of genus Hymenochirus native to Sub Saharan Africa. They are members of Family Pipidae. They are entirely aquatic though they do break the water surface as they are air breathers.

The call of many pipid frogs is a clicking sound, which in Xenopus borealis is produced by forcefully pulling apart the large arytenoid cartilages of the larynx (voice-box), thus producing a "pop" by implosion.
-

So both this aquatic frog and humans altered the throat sac (vanished in both), altered their vocalization pattern from typical croaking and ape long calling to click-trilling/consonant-vowel speaking, and greatly modified the tongue (frog internalized it and snaps laryngeal cartilage, human ancestors increased tongue dexterity (compared to ape lip dexterity) and make snaps lingua-dentally).

Now submerged clicking can definitely be considered a uniquely derived but shared aquatic trait, common to dolphins, aquatic pipid frogs and humans (Khoi-San (Bushmen) and Australian aborigines retain some clicking, as do many language accents, pitch changes, click consonants). Perhaps sea otters also do underwater clicking, especially when the parent is diving below a back-floating infant.

An awesome confirming of underwater feeding and sub-aquatic communication in three distinct fauna. Cheers.

DDeden
 
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David, you speak about the underwater 'click' communication at human ancesters as if it was a fact, and not a hypotesis. Is there any evidence supporting the claim, or is it a plain speculation?
 
Ivo, is there anything that would suggest to you that clicking was not used while underwater foraging and waterside ambushes? It was simply one more useful function, like the white eye sclerae and eyebrow flash, identifiable from a distance.

Anything from a million years ago can only be interpreted ("speculation"), such as bones and stone, but are helpful guides in understanding. Genetic analysis and geologic strata/dating analysis help as well, as do soft tissue and trait comparisons.

As mentioned, humans, dwarf aquatic frogs and dolphins can click and trill without losing air, and have appropriate hearing ability, in calm water. Of course, dolphins are masters, their entire respiratory/auditory system has been greatly altered for better hearing in water. Humans have far better tone and click detection, discrimination and production (in air) than apes or monkeys. Both chimps and humans have a descended larynx, only humans have a descended hyoid bone (base of tongue), giving better tongue control, pitch control, click control, and also underwater suction feeding (oysters...).

Modern humans can click using their tongues, above or underwater, without losing air. Calm water carries quiet sounds quickly outwards from source, rough surf water interferes.

Great apes have very dextrous lips, but their tongues are much less dextrous than humans, they have laryngeal air sacs, [air -> sac <-> lung ] while vibrating the glottis, producing inhaled/exhaled laughter or long calls, (frog croaks are the same); human speech, humming & laughter are exhaled, while submerged clicking is neither.

stages over millions of years, from wetlands to seashore pocket beaches:

tail lost + air sacs gained = upright sit-float-feed, plucking water surface foods
*air sac lost + dense bones = submerged crouching-wading-dipping
*dense occiput + 'sea otter' nose + fat = dive-backfloating + vocal
*hyoid descent + fat cheeks at infancy = dive-backfloating + clicking
*complex tools, nets, boats, harpoons = reduced diving, clicking less

*occurs in humans not chimps, so occurred after chimp/human split.
 
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Ivo, is there anything that would suggest to you that clicking was not used while underwater foraging and waterside ambushes? It was simply one more useful function, like the white eye sclerae and eyebrow flash, identifiable from a distance.
Hm, in science it is usually the other way it works - if you suggest a theory, you need to back it with facts and evidence. Nobody denies underwater clicking or eyebrow flashing is a possibility, but it is a very weak argument for claiming it a fact. If such logic was used, one could also claim they knew the special theory of relativity, and since there is no proof they did not, it must be true. The AA theory is seducing, but its main problem is that its promoters mix science with plain fiction. It would be fine if you spoke about underwater communication as a remote possibility, but presenting it as if it was something sure, and use it for further deductions, is little bit exaggerated, I'd tell.

It does not mean your posts are not interesting, but I think you should try formulating your claims more objectively and critically, otherwise you risk they could sometimes sound ridicule.
 
Keep preaching your ideology Ivo.

Apparently that is your role here. It is not mine.

I thought you and others at DB might be interested in Diving and Surfacing efficiently.

Subsurface communication is part of that.

Your response indicates indifference to the thread topic.

Why don't you start a thread about your scientific ideology?

You can pour scorn on anyone that disagrees with you.

When you tire of that, you are welcome to discuss

Diving and Surfacing efficiently here,

at the Diving and Surfacing efficiently thread.

(Which, by the way, I did not and would not label 'aquatic ape'. I would have labeled it as 'diving efficiency' and 'archaic forage diving'.)
 
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