Dive respons vs. work respons doing high puls training.

[zag]

Here are my findings on your request. These were yesterday, early afternoon. Near identical conditions, besides only 4.5hrs sleep and doing the training 4 hours earlier than normal.

1) fast 75m DNF.
- Starting heart rate @ 52bpm, first turn @ 53bpm, 2nd turn @ 56bpm, final turn @ 62bpm - ending heart rate at 68bpm - total dive time 1min18secs

2) Then 75m DNF with: a fast 0-25m , medium 25-50m and a slow 50-75m.
- Starting hear rate @ 48bpm, first turn @ 50bpm, 2nd turn @ 50bpm, final turn @ 44bpm - ending heart rate @ 46 bpm - total dive time 1min47secs

3) Then a 75m DNF Slow
- Starting heart rate @ 50bpm, first turn @ 44bpm, 2nd turn @ 40bpm, final turn @ 44bpm - ending heart rate @ 52bpm - total dive time 2min13secs

The science behind what these #s mean or don't mean is still new to me and I am trying to learn more from this site. Merely trying to convey a set of data which is my own. Hopefully one of you guys can comment as to what it might mean in terms of my current performance. At this point, I know I'm in the best diving and physical condition I have ever been in. This is my second year of very diligent training in terms of both exercise, apnea, diet, and lifestyle. Last week I did a pb 6min wet static. I am having difficulty passing the 125m mark on my bi-fin dynamics and don't think that will be happening anytime soon.

 

[growingupninja]

Your graphs are similar to mine although I don't train or test much DNF. Dive response kicks in for me fairly consistently, but if I am sprinting it is muted and delayed until I am actually hypoxic. The slower and more relaxed I swim, the easier it begins, and once it has begun it sticks around even if I pick up the pace. One test you should try is start your swim very slow (like first 50m perhaps) to let it kick in, then finish at fast pace and see if what your pulse is.

I am guessing you abort your DYN because of lactic acid and have strong vasoconstriction. Good for static, aspetto spearing, deep diving but makes the pool tougher!

I need to follow my own advice but I am going to try and slow WAY down on my max DYN to see if maybe the additional time between kicks will give my blood time to circulate in the legs and metabolize the lactic waste... my max bi-fin distance in comp last year was 122m and last comp I borrowed a nice mono and did 139m. For DYN I really need more lactic tolerance...

I don't know if you dive deep or spearfish, but if you have a good dive response it is helpful in terms of safety, but you will very possibly need to minimize exertion at some point (for instance during freefall) to allow it to lock in... I think--and this is conjecture--the DYN slow then sprint test I mentioned above could be a way to see what your assent tachycardia profile is like.

My 2 cents, thank you for sharing your data.

 

[baiyoke]

Here's just a very quick rough estimation of what my HR looks like, nothing serious, just trying out as a start:

Doing 2 apneawalks, not all out apnea, just to the point where my mind says "that's it" unless I really want to push it.

HR before going outside: 47 bpm

Tidal breathing before walks, HR 56 & 50 bpm at start, can't figure out if it's pre-apnea tension, or just a standup low. I allways feel a little tense before dynamic apnea, even in the backyard alone... (static not so much).

#1 Slow walking + 10 sec. run at end: Start at 56 bpm, going up to 83 (high), falling to aound 42, then I started running for app. 10 seconds, HR falling to 38, then breathing again, HR staying at 38 for a while, then going up fast... Post-apnea HR(low) 40 bpm (about 3 min. later).

#2 Fast walking + 20 sec run at end: Start at 50 bpm, going up to 108 (high), then falling to around 40-something, then after running down at 38 for a while, then going up fast... Post-apnea HR(low) 40 bpm (about 3 min. later).

Can't say exactly why I stop at 38, might be my bailout point, might be mental ( I look at the HR-monitor). But in statics it's around that figure also at the moment, perhaps a little lower...

So just to sum up:
#1 slow: 56 - 83 -38end (40post apnea).
#2 fast: 50 - 108 - 38end (40post apnea)

 

[baiyoke]

An interesting post from another thread, including HR observations: http://forums.deeperblue.com/static-dynamic/94941-moving-past-75-meters-3.html#post890922

I think that vary your training program is essential to get your goals, there are a variety of training programs in the manual of Umberto that I'm using.
One of my favorite exercises is the sprints.
I do 8 times 75 meters sprints with 2 minutes rest inbetween in a 25 meter pool. My heart rate rise and fall from 60-115 in the beginning, and rising towards the end of the session to 80-125. Amusingly, It's easier for me to do the 75 meter sprint then a slow 75 meter: In the slow 75, I feel my quadreceps full of lactic acid towards the end of the swim say around 60 and on, while in the sprint I don't feel any lactic acid at all. I think it's the matter of large quantity of white muscle fibers in my body and will be glad to hear any other opinions.

My opinion as stated in the thread: "In my opinion your body is not going into proper dive response mode, because of the heavy work load. That's why you get such a high heart rate, and that's why you don't get lactic... Just a theory, but that is what I'm thinking."

 

[sebastien murat]

"That's the key attribute of top divers - they don't have enormous O2 reserves but instead can go into huge debt without blacking out."

Mullins is absolutely correct.
It's well known that the time of useful consciousness, i.e., the time where you are still captain of your boat, is a direct function of your metabolic rate. Your ability to tolerate a high dose of hypoxia for longer is accomplished by keeping metabolic rate low and centralizing your CO2 stores; understandably not pleasant. Also, it's a function of your core temperature, itself a function of breath-hold duration; the lower the better, i.e., up to a critical (unknown) point.

The `trick´ to getting, let's call them, superhuman performances (all other things being constant, e.g., blood and lung volumes) can only be achieved by slowing your burn rate and dropping below basal metabolic rates, widely, but mistakenly, believed to be forbidden metabolic territory; the term basal, as conventionally employed, is a conceptual artifact with no grounding in reality. Of course there is a lower limit to metabolic rate, but for something the size of, say, an adult male weighing in at about 90-100kg, the lower limit is probably around 75% below BMR or, said another way, 25% of BMR. Simply translated that would correspond to a breath-holding capacity of ca. x4-5 the norm; and not forgetting the enhanced hypoxia and (intoxicating) CO2 tolerance imparted at such low metabolic rates. Of course this is all new human territory and has never been explored before.I've only made some small in-roads in this space, but it's looking promising. More importantly, you get the benefit of greater safety, i.e., more useful consciousness.

Seb
Sydney, Australia

 

[growingupninja]

Seb, do you have any suggestions or avenues to explore for slowing burn rate once actually hypoxic?

Before my last comp I was running dry static tests with my O2 sat meter. On a full lung with apnea warm-up or just a series of holds, my O2 is consistently 90% after 4 minutes, very little if any bradycardia. No warm-up it came in at 92% after 4 minutes with bradycardia and vasoconstriction starting around the 2:30 mark. I have seen real time footage of top static divers and they typically show faster initial drops than me but once hypoxic they seem to drop slower. I don't train a lot of max/deep holds, mostly spearing 1:30 - 3 minute drops with shortish surface intervals so perhaps that is part of it.

 

[sebastien murat]

Hi Lance,

A couple of things:
(1). if you're doing dry stuff, stay supine and don't stand up! Gravity is a killer!
(2). keep the (upper) face cool/cold*

* If no water is flowing over the face, you'll get a warm boundary layer. You need to disrupt this layer to sustain the cooling effect. This is why free-falling as opposed to remaining in static mode is better. If you're desperate you could easily come up with a device to get that flowing effect.

Comment: one of the reasons that the guns don't desat as fast is because they rely more on their lung O2 than blood O2 stores. If you look at the upper, flat part of the HbO2 curve you'll understand what I mean. Big lungs helps.

 

[growingupninja]

* If no water is flowing over the face, you'll get a warm boundary layer. You need to disrupt this layer to sustain the cooling effect. This is why free-falling as opposed to remaining in static mode is better. If you're desperate you could easily come up with a device to get that flowing effect..

Thanks, Seb. That is very interesting, and I was beginning to suspect as the reason that if I do facial immersion in pool temp (78-80F) water, I get no initial DR whatsoever. But if I am actually swimming in a pool, I am showing a strong DR within the first 50M provided I am finning at a low exertion level...

 

[sebastien murat]

PS: Before you're truly in DR `dive mode´, you have to watch out for three conflicting and energy-sapping responses:

- exercise/work response
- thermoregulatory response, i.e., shivering.
- gravity response, i.e., on reperipheralization of of blood volume (orthostatic intolerance)

Maybe see you in LA this year