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Drugs in competitive athletes Questionnaire

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Should performance enhancing substances be banned?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 73.3%
  • No

    Votes: 8 26.7%

  • Total voters
    30
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
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Thanks Eric,

There are certainly a few more things there for me to look at.

So we're in agreement that sodium bicarbonate is potentially dangerous for Freedivers.

My current study is on the effect of sodium bicarbonate on breath-hold time.

And I'm sure you'll agree that it can only be a good thing to find out by scientific experimentation WHETHER OR NOT there is an effect of any ergogenic aid in Freediving.

Cool!
 
Dogmatrix

Dogmatrix

Deeper Blues pet
Jun 4, 2002
210
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Hey guys... i don't normally stray to far from the spearing forums... but this is a topic of great interest to me... so i will try to relay some of my understanding of this. My point of view is that of a student part way through a pharmacy degree but also undertakling some sports exercise subjects.

Firstly eric this is a paragraph out of my notes... it has to do with the IOC's view of druguse/doping... it disagree's with a earlier comment you made about the IOC being only interested in protecting the athletes from harm and not because of drug ergogenic effect

"According to the INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMITTEE (IOC) ergogenic drug use or doping is defined as "the administration of or use by a competing athelete of any substance foreign to the body or of any physiological substance taken in abnormal quantitie or taken by abnormal route of entry into the body with the soul intention of increasing in an artificial manner his/her performance in competition"."

So this would suggest that the IOC looks into both the ergogenic effects and the dangers assosiated with drug use/doping.

I notice also that someone mentioned they were a cyclist at one stage... the haemocrit level that cannot be exceeded by race participants was about 50% i believe... this is unfortunate as some athletes naturally have above this level... the defence of the body responcible for the rulling is that it creates dangers in hot climates ect so it is for the saefty of the athletes. My personal thought is that it is probly to minimise the use of EPO and/or blood doping in general.

On the subject of caffeine this is a very interesting drug and some trials have been undertaken into both the anaerobic and aerobic effects caffeine may produce on trained and untrained athletes alike. I was recently part of a double blind trial comprising over 20 fit people... it was undertaken to look at the anaerobic effects of caffeine... the initial tests are finished but their is still one set of tests remaining due to a malfunction with equipment. The results of the test were varied and interesting we were dosed up with 5mg/kg caffeine given 90 minutes for absorption then we did a 1 min maximal output cycle test followe by 3min break then another 1 min test... blood samples are taken for FFA, Glucose, lactate, and a host of other things (urine tests finger prics, venupuncture ect were used). Results havent been fully analysed yet but we have found that their are a few differeing effects...

Eg in some people it increased heart rate and psyches em up... others get anxious ect. Another study put forward that the amount of caffeine taken did not reflect the increase in performance... the IOC will call a positive test if levels of greater then 12mg/L are recorded.

To anyone thinking of it I wouldn't suggest caffeine for freediving as I personally found that i felt more wreckless whilst on the caffeine and would have been inclined to push my limits to far... (thats just personal though). also keep in mind that heaps of foods have caffeine in them anyway... eg chocolate,tea,coffee, mountain dew, TAB... the list is huge...


Sodium citrate and sodium bicarbonate are both used to delay acidosis and therefore delay the fatigue associated with high levels of lactic acid... the theory is that lactic acid reduces the contractility of muscle fibres and this is a result of calcium release from the sarcoplasmic reticulum being impedid as well as inhibited binding to triponin complex.

The basics of this is... by taking the sodium bicarbonate/citrate your increasing your extracellular pH which indirectly affects the intracellular pH by allowing the "lactic acid" out of the muscle cells.


If i were to look at something for freediving EPO would probly be he go... it ups the number of mature RBC's... but personally i have never been big on taking drugs with the idea of increasing performance.

Best advice however is if you don't know a lot about it... don't be afraid to ask... don't use it if you don't know how it works for you as different people react differently to the same drugs (eg caffeine). Much of my info here is taken from a booklet we were given by our lecturer.


Hope this has helped.
Robert


Eric I think that what they were talking about with pH refers to the use of diuretics... these are used for a number of reasons (boxing ect to make a weight division) but the main one that I believe the OIC was looking at was the masking ability... if the urine is outside a certain range it can't be testsed for certain drugs... hence your disqualified for usin diuretics... if you would like an example look at the aussie bowler shane warn...

Cheers again!
Rob
 
Last edited:
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
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NaHCO3

Hey Bob,

I wasn't expecting any more replys to tthis thread! Excellent!

Eric and myself had a small disagreement on this matter and you seem to take my point of view.

I've done theoretical work into the possible effects of blod doping on freediving. The conclusions were simply that i twould probably work but it could kill youm Much the same as in endurance events.

Another training aid which could be considered is creatine. For one, it is legal. It woul increase the stores of non-oxidative energy stores and hopefully delay O2 reduction and CO2 production. And I haven't thought of anyway that this could be dangerous. Any thoughts?

I was up until 1:30am this morning finishing my dissertation. I won't get into the methods in too much detail because it may be getting published in a peer reviewed journal. Basically, NaHCO3 increased maximum BHT by an average of 15%. When applied to previous competition results, this provided an averag increase of 11 places up the rankings for static apnoea.

However, analysis of PaO2 levels and exhaled gas concentrations has led to the conclusion that NaHCO3 would greatly increase the risk of blackout. For more details, see (not the next issue of but the one folowing) freediver magazine.

So, don't use sodium bicarbonate! Or sodium citrate or potassium bicarbonate.

And did you know that repeated apnoea causes dehydration and a reduction in blood volume?

Anyway, it's nice to see the debate continuing.

I'm off to get my project bound and handed in.

Hamish.

P.S. check out:

http://www.wada-ama.org/docs/web/standards_harmonization/code/code_v3.pdf

and

http://www.wada-ama.org/docs/web/standards_harmonization/code/testing_v2.pdf
 
Dogmatrix

Dogmatrix

Deeper Blues pet
Jun 4, 2002
210
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thanks to the piece of crap thing on here that logs you out after a few mins i just lost about 30 mins worth of careful wording and thought... will reply again later!

Rob
 
O

okiecaver

New Member
Apr 12, 2001
40
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0
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An ex-comp bodybuilder and recovering addict's response..

I still lift and hang out on some of the bodybuilding forums.

I'm sorry but I got hooked on ephedra to cut, then drank to come down. I never used anabolics, in the early 80s they were just coming out of the closet. I spent 19 years like that until I realized I was going to end up a good looking corpse. I've been clean for over 15 years now, the most powerful supplement I use is DHEA, which you can get at walmart, and I still make gains.

But now the recurring myth is that YOU HAVE to "juice" to get big, that nothing short of 10-15 lbs a month gains is "enough". What ever happened to good habits, training, talent, and hard work?

I guess it's my technical training but I can't imagine going under the surface with anything in me. I tried once with a perscription decongestant. It was not pretty. Skyrocketing breathing rate, which skewed my bouyancy and almost led to panic.

I can only imagine what a freediver whose "supplements" have crashed, panicked and flailing, could do to a safety diver in competition, or his buddy on a fun dive.

Finally, the percieved "need". I know BB'ers who can't go for a month without doing a cycle, even tho they know what it will do to them in the long run. They don't believe they can perform without the juice, so the fear of what life might be like without it keeps them using.

I'm sorry, but for me it's just not worth it. I want to die in my bed at age 100, with everything still there.

Dive safe
Brock
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
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Some good points there Brock,

Anyone who submerses themselves in water without breathing apparatus after ingesting a substance orblood doping etc. probably doesn't have all their dogs barking.

With regard to your bodybuilding, good to hear that you have seen the light, and turned your back on the darkside!

It's more than likely that your body building history could give you an edge in freediving by increasing myoglobin and creatine stores. Combined with aerobic and apnoeic training, you're onto a winner I reckon.

Hamish.
 
Dogmatrix

Dogmatrix

Deeper Blues pet
Jun 4, 2002
210
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okiecaver were you saying you were using the ephidrine for "cut"? by this are we talking better muscle definition through increase free fatty acid levels and therefor increase use of thease for energy?

If so i am glad your off it... thats some nasty stuff and the therapeutic dose is a little small... lot of dead people out their who have found that out the hard way!

Will have another word with you Hamish my mesage was lost upon completion twice last night...

Cheers all
Rob
 
ramstam

ramstam

New Member
May 9, 2003
227
11
0
Ban but not because the drugs are bad.
I think we are past the question and on to the real question of what we want freediving to be about. Will it be fake like bodybuilding or pure. We need to all compete from the same set of rules. I want my sport to be pure.
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
5
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An interesting point ramstam,

I think any athlete who is passionate about their sport would want it to be pure. Unfortunately sometimes the need for recognition and achievement become too great and athletes start to cheat, sometimes risking their own lives in doing so like the cyclists in the past that have died in suspicious circumstances, probably drom EPO or blod doping. This is why sports governing bodies use the testing regulations and protocols set out by WADA.
Testing is carried out at freediving events as in almost all other sports but there are certain substances that cannot be tested for such as sodium bicarbonate. There are new techniques being looked that may identify whether or not an athlete has used any substance whatsoever. But these methods are still in the early stages of development and it may be years before they are proven (or disproven) as valid and reliable. Until then certain substances will remain legal and athletes will continue to put themselves at risk using substances that could have tragic consequences, especially in freediving which already has its risks.

Click on the links in my previous posts if you are interested in WADA.

Hamish.
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
5
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I would like to add that I'm not trying to darken the image of freediving. And I'm certainly not suggesting that anyone in competition will cheat.
I have heard of freedivers experimenting with sodium bicarbonate but not in competition. I recognise that I have only heard this as second or third hand information. And I appreciate that as long as such people are aware of the risk they are putting themselves at, they are free to continue doing so.
 
loopy

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
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Hamish

You'll have to forgive my naivety, but are all CNS stimulants banned by IOC rules? What about something like ritalin for someone suffering from ADD or some of the more powerful stimulants for autism?
 
Dogmatrix

Dogmatrix

Deeper Blues pet
Jun 4, 2002
210
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Loopy you can call ASDA on 1800 020506 for info on what drugs are ok and which arn't... you don't have to mention your name either...

Rob
 
loopy

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
719
51
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Well the reason why I ask is casue to my mind, someone who is autistic, suffers from ADD or even just a very active imagination (ie eccentric) would suffer dramatically in apnea. If these people had prescription drugs (ie ritalin) would they be allowed to use them before a comp? I can't imagine so, but it also kinda limits the number of people who perform well in comp...
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
5
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Hey Loopy,

Ritalin is banned because it contains Methylphenidate HCL, a known stimulant.

I'm far from an expert in the field but I assume you are right that special exceptions will not be granted to people with such illnesses. It does seem unfortunate that such individuals may be able to freedive for their passtime but not in competition.

And that sounds like a very useful phone number, Dogmatrix. I was a little confused at first as ASDA is the name of a British supermarket chain, until I looked for it on the web!
:duh

Hamish.
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
5
0
44
Loopy,

I just had a quick check of the WADA code and there is a process that athletes can go through to claim for therapeutic use of a banned substance. If their appeal is granted then it seems as though they are allowed to compete. Whether the WADA code is used in testing at freediving competitions, I'm not quite sure. They probably don't use it yet because it is so new.
But maybe the governing body also considers such situations.

Hamish.
 
  • Like
Reactions: loopy
Dogmatrix

Dogmatrix

Deeper Blues pet
Jun 4, 2002
210
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Hamish your right you can apply for permission to take a medication if it is for something like asthma ect... eg Asthma and asthma puffers... now the interesting thing is that according to my lecturer the % of people playing high grade sport who have asthma is greater then normal population make up... make your own conclusions.

My bad on not mentioning that ASDA is the "AUSTRALIAN SPORTS DRUG AGENCY" apparently approval for therapeutic use of banned substances cna be applied for via ASDMAC (Australian sports drug medical advisory committee) my notes don't cover WADA very well...

I would still like to know how water temperature and wetsuit makeup affect an athlete's ability to hold their breath vs distance traveled...

Eg super cold water... might hold breath longer... but muscles not so effective.. so whats the "ultimate temp" and who has the most friction free suit :confused: guess thats a Qn for another time and thread though.

Rob
 
loopy

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
719
51
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Yeah slightly off topic, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think I know this one... I remember something I think Eric mentioned... in cold water, your heart rate slows down a lot more, but it's harder to relax. In warmer water, it's easier to relax. The way I had it figured (and I'm struggling to remember how I came to this conclusion, so odds are it's wrong) but a more acidic diver would do better in cold water than an alkaline one, who'd want warmer water.

Shoot me down, someone who knows better
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
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By acidic do you mean more anaerobic and therefore producing more lactate? I would have thought that an acidic or lactic diver would appreciate the warmer water to increase blood flow and dispose of lactate. But maybe I need to think about it more.

I think relaxation is the key. One of my subjects was not a freediver but a yogi. He held his breath almost as long as the freeedivers and his PaO2 never dropped below 96% whereas everyone elses dropped to the 70's. He must be very O2 efficient. Either that or he was breathing through his ass as my supervisor suggested.

The colder the water the greater the diving response i.e. reduced heart rate and increased peripheral vasoconstriction. For no limits dives I would say that cold (but not too cold) water is best. As for constant weight, you may be right. warmer water would be good for the muscles especially after seeing Guillaum's dive on video. That was some very powerful finning all the way to the bottom.

As for the ultimate suit, try www.freediver.co.uk for performance freediving suits. As soon as I have money that is where I will be shopping!

Hamish.
 
loopy

loopy

Deeper Blue Hypoxyphiliac
Oct 24, 2002
719
51
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No, I meant blood more acidic

Again, I'm not 100% about that.. it's something that stuck in my mind but I don't know if I've interpreted something wrong (more than likely).

About your study - is there any chane of getting a copy?
 
T

The Fury

Sultan of swim
Feb 1, 2002
55
5
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Do you mean that the diver's blood is more acidic at rest or becomes more acidic compared to other divers due to CO2 or lactate? Because resting pH of the blood is maintained within very narrow margins in humans unless it is disturbed by diet, activity or illness. Can you remember where you read this? I'd be interested to take a look.

As for my study, My supervisor has recommended that I don't discuss it in too much detail until it has been published. Which unfortunately won't be for sometime. I can certainly let you have a copy once it's published (if it gets accepted).
The most important result is that sodium bicarbonate allows you to hold your breath longer. Unfortunately your PaO2 also drops significantly lower so you could be more likely to blackout.

Hamish.
 
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