Dynamic Comp Rules - Pulling [survey]

[trux]

Yes, you are right, Sebastian. If the rule exists, it should be respected by all competitors and applied by all judges. (Un)fortunately (?), from many videos of DYF and DNF performances I saw, I can tell that there is a rather important percentage of cases where the rule was not applied, although I think it ought to. That's my main argument against the rule - instead of making conditions equal for all (what Bill claimed is its purpose), it brings so great differences (due to a different way of judging), that competing is now completely unjust. When then a more vigilant judge exceptionally correctly penalizes a freediver, then it can be considered nothing else than excessive punishment.

 

[ggarrett]

Maybe I missed something in the discussion or just do not understand this thread, but isn't touching or grabbing the pool edge before exiting a DQ rather than a penalty?

See 5.17
"Any propulsion assistance other than swimming movements is forbidden (except in case of thrusting against the side of the wall during turns). This means that the nose and/or mouth of the athlete have to exit before or simultaneously, when grabbing the pool edge or the lane-rope in the pool."

I watched a very talented diver get DQ'd for putting his hand on the pool edge before his nose broke the surface. He was no where close to any trouble nor did he propel himself to the surface by doing so. It seemed unfair to everyone except the judge. 2¢.

Peace,
Glen

P.S. What's difference in 5.17 between "side of the wall" versus just "the wall?"

 

[Billextreme]

Garret,

Have a close look at rule 7.1 and 7.8.3.

/B

 

[GirlOfWater]

It's the same with this rule as it is with the SP, people do mistakes even though they're well within their limits and should know better. You have to practice coming up from a performance in dynamic just as you practice the turn or the SP (which I learn the hard way).

It's no problem to use your speed from swimming to get your head above water without touching the rope or the wall first, and then grap it. You just have to think about what you're doing and practice it a few times... Doing this, you make it easier for both yourself and the poor judge who's trying to be fair, both to the rules and the athlete.

Even so, I completely agree that the rule gives room for unequal conditions and different judging. This should be worked on and also an adjustment of the penalty should be done, as this isn't such a big deal in my opinion...

The problem with an athlete with a heavy neck weight in a deep pool also needs some attention, but I don't see the reason for this problem in the "pulling rule". A sufficient floating devise is in many cases not present when you surface after a dive, and this is a big problem when you're tired after a dive.

Hmm, conclusion? We need a simpler, easier to judge, more realistic rule about pulling and also need to improve the rutine for how the athlete can be safe and stable upon surfacing. Other than that, just know the rules and train how to follow then, even the tiny details!

Just my opinion

Elisabeth

 

[trux]

It's the same with this rule as it is with the SP, people do mistakes even though they're well within their limits and should know better. You have to practice coming up from a performance in dynamic just as you practice the turn or the SP (which I learn the hard way).

No, sorry, I disagree, it is not at all the same as with SP. The problem is not in doing the surfacing properly - here I agree that you can train it. You misunderstood the whole issue here. The problem is on the judge's side, not on the competitor's side. I did not yet hear about anyone who was disqualified because of SP even if he did it perfectly, or about someone who passed the SP even if he failed to do it (though I am sure there are such cases too). On the other hand, when you view couple of videos from competitions, you can clearly see that there is a very high percentage of performances that ought to be penalized because of grabbing, but it happens only very exceptionally.

One way out of this situation would be better training of judges, and the other one is removing or seriously modifying the rule. I am afraid that relying on the skills and fairness of judges is not the good way to go. They are only humans, may be tired, upset, distracted, unconcentrated, emotionally in relation with the competitor, or may even intentionally abuse the rule - it is too easy, and there is very little to do against it. Unlike at the SP, where the decision is mostly quite simple and the judge can decide almost with closed eyes, at the grabbing/pulling/propulsing (both underwater and above) it is often on such an edge, that even if the judge is really careful and concentrated, he may not be able to decide correctly without reviewing the exit on video in slow motion.

And in fact it is not a problem only at the surfacing - also at turns there is too much ambiguity - although it is allowed to push the front wall with the hand, using the other hand as a pivot on the pool bottom is by some judges considered a violation of the rule, other judges ignore it, and many judges do not even have the chance to see it.

Again, it offers such a space for injustice and manipulation here that it is absolutely scary, and brings the freediving sport to the level of box or gymnastics, where the judge is almighty and often decides under the influence of personal preferences, external pressure, favorites ranking, mood, etc. I am strongly against any rules that allows for such uncertainty. On my mind touching or grabbing should be allowed within the 2m (or whatever else distance) from the wall, and before the surfacing - only in this way we can have just and equal conditions for all. Well, originally I voted to keep the rule with just a minor penalty, but since I changed my mind and am now completely against it.

 

[laminar]

To echo trux's post, one of the main reasons for the change in the Surfacing Protocol was precisely because LMC was a judgement open to considerable interpretation and as such there were wildly different interpretations. It's not a good idea to expect that experienced judges will be better at applying the rules than inexperienced judges, not when the entire performance is at stake. While we have the precedent of other sports results at the mercy of bad or good judgements it seems like a good idea to minimize that as much as possible. For better or for worse (and there are drawbacks to the new SP, as well), the new SP is at least easy to judge, whether you are an experienced or inexperienced judge. Is the airway above the surface at all times, yes or no? Did the athlete perform the SP in the proper sequence, yes or no? Did the athlete perform it within the allotted time, yes or no? In rare cases when the athlete struggles valiantly through an obvious LMC and still completes the protocol, the opportunity for subjective judgement is greatly reduced. As I said, this isn't always a good thing because an LMC that severe is clearly not a clean performance, but something's got to give. Having competed I much prefer rules that can be consistently applied over rules that are open to great interpretation.

I think AIDA showed great leadership in updating the SP. However, it shouldn't ever rest on its laurels and continue to consider feedback from judges, athletes, spectators and its directors. The SP can no doubt be improved, as can this pulling rule.

 

[ggarrett]

Garret,

Have a close look at rule 7.1 and 7.8.3.

/B

Thank you for the reference. I feel really dense on this one.

5.17
Any propulsion assistance other than swimming movements is forbidden (except in case of thrusting against the side of the wall during turns). This means that the nose and/or mouth of the athlete have to exit before or simultaneously, when grabbing the pool edge or the lane-rope in the pool.

7.1
The mistakes mentioned below are no reason for disqualification, but penalty points will be applied on the concerned performance, negative numbers don't exist.

7.8.3
If the athlete pulls or propels him/herself on a support point (wall, line, bottom, etc.) before the exit of his/her mouth or nose, a penalty of 10 POINTS is applied.

5.17 says to me if an athlete grabs the wall before surfacing, he is DQ'd.

7.8.3 says to me if an athlete grabs the wall before surfacing, he gets a penalty.

What am I missing?
Do both 5.17 and 7.83 not refer to grabbing the wall (i.e. propulsion) before the exit of the airways?
Is the edge in 5.17 different than the wall in 7.8.3? That must be it. Thanks.

Peace,
Glen

 

[MikkoP]

Sorry for bringing up a dead thread, but I read this and it's predecessor and found them still relevant. The only thing that has changed after this thread is that the penalty for grabbing/touching/pulling dropped to -5 points instead of the earlier -10 points. I think almost all of us already agree that this rule is stupid, but here's some more things, just for the sake of argument.


In the earlier thread I found this Bill Strömberg quote: "This rule is there because not everyone is competing on a lane close to the wall, or on a lane with good lines that will support in the right way when you grab one. We need to have rules that will be as close as possible to be the same for every athlete in what ever pool they compete in."

So, the original rationale behind the rule is that at the end of a dive it's supposedly a big advantage to pull from the edge of the pool compared to pulling from a line. First of all, it's pretty much the same. And if the lines are that loose and it's hard to grab them, then it will also be very hard to hang from them with one hand while doing a SP and keeping your mouth out of the water. There will be a difference in any case, and that difference is much bigger than the difference between pulling from an edge or from a line. The grab rule resolves nothing. What we can do is tighten the lane ropes. Also, if in a competition there are more than two people diving at the same time, everyone dives in the middle lanes and no one gets the advantage of being on the side lane. And this is pretty much the way things are done in the comps I've been to.

Of course, you can still argue that there is a difference between separate competitions - in this comp you have to dive in the middle lanes, but in that one you can dive on the lanes next to the wall, where it's easier to grab the edge. Right. Also in some comps you have to dive in 50 meter pool, in others it's 25 meter pool; in some comps there is 4 meter deep pool, in others it's 1 meter deep, the water temperature varies and so on. There are always differences, you just need to adapt.

Consider depth disciplines. Doing a deep CNF in Dean's Blue Hole is easier than in a 4 degree Celsius Finnish lake where you can't see anything below 15 meters. I still don't advocate filling Blue Hole with mud and forcing everyone to use 5 mm wetsuits, just that it would be "the same for every athlete in whatever lake or sea they compete in." Being able to do comparable results in different competitions is important, but the main thing is that things should be equal inside one comp. Between competitions there are always differences and that just adds to the spice. If you want to set a record you just choose a competition that fits your style most closely. Even if we wanted to make competitions more comparable, adding a grab rule should be one of the last things we did, as it's irrelevant to the issue.


Another argument for the grab rule is that divers should move by swimming, not by touching or pulling from the edges or walls of the pool. However, that's completely illogical since we are still allowed to touch and push off the walls at every turn.
If we are to forbid something, it should be pushing off the walls. In a 200 m DNF in 25m pool you move around 80 meters just by pushing off. A big pull from the edge at the end of the dive can give you maybe 1 meter, if your arm is very long. The penalty for grabbing is -5 points (-10 meters penalty for 0-1 meters benefit), so if the rules were consistent, the penalty for every turn and push off should be at least -50 points (-100 meters penalty for 10 meter benefit). That way a 200 m DNF with a grab and normal turns should be penalized by -5 points for the grab and -400 points for the turns.

But, just as competitive swimming is about swimming on the surface, it is still allowed to start your swim by jumping from a starting platform, dive 15 meters and push off the walls at turns. Just as DYN and DNF are about swimming underwater, it is still allowed to push off at turns, break the surface in the 5 meter zone at pool ends and it should be allowed to grab the pool edge or rope lane before your airways are out of water.

Someone might still say that if we allow grabbing and pulling, the hell will break loose. All the athletes would be pulling from the bottom and sides of the pool every night and day and all the world records would be broken using this unholy way of diving. I disagree. If you have ever tried moving forwards by pulling from the bottom, you know it's very inefficient. Even continuously doing free immersion using the edge of the pool is less efficient than swimming. In Lignano there was some strange Italian competition where people did horizontal free immersion in pool using a rope that was set in the pool. I didn't test it but Rune Hallum Sørensen did and told it felt less efficient than normal DNF, because you couldn't glide that well.

Of course, I can probably agree that we don't want athletes doing "horizontal FIM" when the discipline should be DNF or DYN, so we could just change the rule to something like "Grabbing and touching the pool edge during the end of the dive and surfacing is allowed. Continuous pulling as a means of propulsion is forbidden." I'm sure someone can frame it better to make it more objective, but that's my general idea.


Grabbing something when you are surfacing is a natural reaction and also a safety reason, to a degree. Not allowing it is a failed rule, formed by failed logic, and we should finally get rid of it and make competitions more enjoyable for athletes, judges and the audience.

 

[Bill]

Now that you've brought up the subject; how about allowing bottom touching within the 5 meter zone? Sort of like Bill's decision, almost 'anything goes' on the candy cane.