Dynamic Comp Rules - Pulling

[cebaztian]

Can it be summarized:

Keep the rule:
- Fairness - same circumstances for all (midlanes aswell as hard edges).
- No pulling, extra help.
- See it as a part of SP - a task that has to be performed in order to show mental/physical control.

Get rid of the rule:
- KISS - less rules - better judging - more comprehensible sport.
- Safety - allow a "natural" grab for balance and control.

The fairness problem was easily solved in WC Laussane by having a line at the edge (as seen in Wolles photo).

Sebastian

 

[jome]

Yes, and unless you need all 8 or so lanes, why not just have all of the starts in the middle and use the ones on the side for warmup? That's what we did last year...

But of course big competitions, such as the world champs, will see starts on all lanes. Which by the way, makes the event about 100x more interesting for specatators. It has to be seen to truly appreciate the difference

 

[perow1]

Why would it be more safe to pull up from the water than to use the momentum of your movement to get your airways over the surface and then rest your arms on the edge?

 

[BennyB]

Very interesting comments so far.

I'm interested to know if there really is that much difference between pulling yourself up from a wall or from a lane rope. Ultimately the athlete is going to lean on the edge anyway, regardless of it being a rope or a wall. I've never pulled myself up from a dynamic so I don't know if there's a huge difference between the two.

In the Nice comp in 2006 inner and outer lanes were used. The outer lanes had ropes put up about 30cm inside the pool edge to make it the same as the inner lane. When I came up it was easy enough to lean on the rope and support my weight (at the time I would have been about 94kg incl lead), so perhaps pulling yourself up wouldn't be too different with either rope or pool edge?

Cheers,
Ben

 

[perow1]

Exactly BennyB, I think it has to do with what you are used to do in training. So if the rules are one way why not train according to the rules and it will not feel that strange to refrain from pulling. If one thinks its silly with the rule since it is no gain with pulling I cannot see the loss either.

 

[naiad]

While we're discussing, I voted for the removal of the verbal ok from the SP. It should be replaced with something else or at least for open water discips be just removed. The first thing a surfacing diver should do is breathe, not try to speak. Just my opinnion, but I feel this compromises safety quite a bit...

I agree. I am just too out of breath, mostly with dynamic, and 15 seconds is a very short time. Glad to know I'm not the only one who finds this unreasonable.

I started a thread on the middle vs side lane debate...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/safety/62635-middle-lane-vs-side-lane-dynamics.html

 

[cebaztian]

One less rule is always a gain.

There must be a good reason for it being there.

Sebastian

 

[trux]

There must be a good reason for it being there.

I think there is. The motoric control of larynx muscles (controlling the breathing and also allowing speaking) is often among the first to be affected by LMC. So the ability to pronounce "I am OK" not only confirms that your brain works sufficiently to do it, but also that your ability to breath and speak is not hindered by LMC. I do not think that the pronouncing of the very short "I am OK" can in any way limit your breathing after surfacing - you can very well pronounce it during one of the exhales, and the 15s are to my mind more than enough.

 

[trux]

Can it be summarized:

Keep the rule:
- Fairness - same circumstances for all (midlanes aswell as hard edges).
- No pulling, extra help.
- See it as a part of SP - a task that has to be performed in order to show mental/physical control.

Get rid of the rule:
- KISS - less rules - better judging - more comprehensible sport.
- Safety - allow a "natural" grab for balance and control.

What about adding a survey (vote) to this thread to see a little bit more opinions. Not that I think it can influence AIDA's decision, but it would be interesting to know anyway.

I'd suggest following options:

1. No pulling; disqualify the competitor instead of penalizing
2. Keep the rule as is (no pulling, 10pt/20m penalty)
3. Keep the rule as is but do not allow side lanes (mandatory lines on both sides of the lane and hence same conditions for everyone)
4. Keep the rule, but reduce the penalty to a realistic value (i.e. 1pt/2m)
5. Keep the rule, but reduce the penalty to a realistic value (i.e. 1pt/2m) + no side lanes allowed
6. No pulling during performance, but allow pulling at surfacing
7. Allow pulling both during and at the end of the performance

 

[laminar]

Trux,

I think these discussions can indeed influence AIDA rules. I have seen it happen. Of courses, the discussion needs to spread further afield.

Pete

 

[trux]

OK, so could Ben or a moderator edit this thread and add the vote, so that we do not need to start a new one?

 

[martin_gk]

Just so that we are clear what we are talking about I was trying to find the rule on the AIDA web site. I found this document:
REGULATIONS FOR INTERNATIONAL
FREEDIVING COMPETITIONS
VERSION 11.2 (2006.16.02 AIDA/PV)

Sating under §5.17
Any propulsion assistance other than swimming movements is forbidden (except in case of thrusting against the side of the wall during turns). This means that the nose and/or mouth of the athlete have to exit before or simultaneously, when grabbing the pool edge or the lane-rope in the pool.

It dose not say anything about penalty here though. Am I am looking at the right document?

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[trux]

Well, I found that the author of a thread cannot edit it and add a poll, so I created a new one here: http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-competitions/70378-dynamic-comp-rules-pulling-survey.html

 

[martin_gk]

rather than making a poll I would like to understand better what these rules are for and how they came to be.

 

[trux]

rather than making a poll I would like to understand better what these rules are for and how they came to be.

Read this thread from the beginning, I think it was explained sufficiently.

 

[jome]

I think there is. The motoric control of larynx muscles (controlling the breathing and also allowing speaking) is often among the first to be affected by LMC. So the ability to pronounce "I am OK" not only confirms that your brain works sufficiently to do it, but also that your ability to breath and speak is not hindered by LMC. I do not think that the pronouncing of the very short "I am OK" can in any way limit your breathing after surfacing - you can very well pronounce it during one of the exhales, and the 15s are to my mind more than enough.

Hmm, well you are right. In fact I suffered such a failure in my last competiton static. I tried to utter the words, but the voice was just cut off somehow, because I was spasming in the larynx or something, so yeah, it was definately not an ok performance, but without the verbal ok I could have passed it. But that's not why I'm against the rule (it was a crappy static anyhow)

But now we would need to consider is this a good or a bad thing? For example, my situation could have been significantly worse if I had tried and tried to say "I'm ok" instead of breathing.

Especially in open water, where you have waves splashing etc etc, the recovery breathing, IMO, should not be compromised.

Then again, not huge problems with this rule...But just some food for thought and further discussion in the cold winter times when the bureaucrats crawl away form the sunlight into warm offices to make silly desicions...

 

[cebaztian]

Forcing athletes to talk during SP is definitly a good thing. As mentioned above it is one of the first signs that will "detect" LMC.

I do not believe as some say - that it can cause the onset of LMC.

I believe it is an important part of the rules that keeps LMC out fo the sport to a greater extent.

If you dont have energy (oxygen) enouh to say: ImOK. Well then dive shallower.

Sebastian

 

[trux]

Well, I see Jome's point - I think he is right to certain extent that you may forget to breath if you concentrate on speaking. But on the other hand, if you train the protocol properly and frequently, you will learn to first make a few deep breaths before doing the sign and telling "I am OK". If you exhale and inhale at least once before trying to pronounce it (and you should definitely do at least 3-5 breaths before doing it!), then I do not think there is any increased security risk - if you black out or get samba at this point, then you'd get it even when not trying to speak.

Should we consider the speaking as a security risk, then the visual OK and the removing of facial equipment would need to be considered a risk too - because if you are close to LMC/BO and try to concentrate on these tasks, you may forget to breath too. It means we would need to eliminate the entire protocol and would be back to the old times when only observation was used to detect samba, and that lead to many subjective judgments and many protests. Although it is clear that the recent SP is not perfect, I doubt that there are many freedivers wanting go back where it was before.

 

[BennyB]

I think as far as the pool is concerned, the current SP is probably as close as we'll get it to being ideal. Although not perfect, it both captures legitimate LMC symptoms and is reasonably fair to the athlete. If we change it now it'll only be at the expense of something else.

SP in the ocean? I'm sure we can do better...

 

[naiad]

If you dont have energy (oxygen) enouh to say: ImOK. Well then dive shallower.

I think different people must experience this differently, because some don't see the problem, and others do. For me it is not a problem of oxygen, but of CO2 and exhaustion. It mostly happens with dynamic. Even in non-apnea situations this can happen - many athletes are exhausted and very out of breath after a race.

Possibly it is my own problem - I have tried to do the thing of a few deep breaths after surfacing, but I don't have any conscious control of my breathing at that time, and I can't tell if 15 seconds have passed or not. That is not because of LMC or being close to the limit, but just because I haven't been able to learn. I described it on this thread...
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beginner-freediving/68702-stuck-exhale-mode-problem.html