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Equalization problem in inverted position

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
1,289
200
153
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bolts said:
Apart from learning the Frenzel technique, which is still a mystery to me despite my best efforts (and useless tongue...), is there any other tips or tricks from anyone who has solved this problem?

This caught my eye.

Don't focus on the tongue at first. Most people think, when talking about frenzel that "oh yeah, it's the tongue as a piston thingy".

In fact, the tongue is just the last thing you add on it to top it off. Icing on a cake, so to speak.

I find it much easier to learn (and teach) first to equalize with the cheeks or even a balloon (yeah it sounds funky, but it works). The problem is not usually the tongue, it's the softpalate/epiglottis combo put it's just hard to realize because all the focus is on the tongue.

Now here's the shameless plug:another frenzel guide
 
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Reactions: pat fish

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Interesting that Jome figured this out about the tongue. I have just downloaded your document to read over later, but I was in the process of preparing a thorough on the topic with such additions as you mention here. I as well found that control of the tongue is essentially not required for the piston action in the airspace, and actually was naturally doing a cheek piston action for the longest time when equalizing at depth. However, this would not allow me to perform a very long or effective equalization on a mouthfill. I then realized I was using the cheek instead of the so-called "tongue". Adjusting my operations I was suddenly able to equalize to max depth and extremely comfortably. I once again assumed I was doing the frenzel-fattah technique as described because it was working now. As I began exploring other aspects of equalization and was paying close attention to details, I realized it was not even the tongue or the cheeks that I was using as the main source of piston action. It is the jaw. Dropping the jaw down, the cheeks pull in, the tongue lies flat, and air fills the space. Then closing the epiglottis and resisting bulging at the cheeks with the cheek muscles (easier than the attempt to piston with the cheeks), one closes the jaw. This is the main source of force for myself and other long time practitioners of the mouthfill.

So, I as well was going to elaborate on this, since it simplifies greatly the process of learning and deploying the other parts of the frenzel-fattah technique and achieves great equalizing results.

For interest to this thread as well, I have always naturally equalized since starting to freedive, and always assumed I had the ability to valsalva and frenzel. Recently I think I have discovered that I do not have the ability to perform valsalva or frenzel without adding my instinctive tendency to perform BTV. I can put huge pressure into my nose without performing BTV and this does not force open my eustacian tubes. The same with Frenzel. I found this out while studying the nature of BTV using my natural tendency in comparison to a friend's (currently) inability. The results as well I hope to publish soon. This all is pointing towards a potential conclusion that many people may have eustacian tubes that would require much more pressure than they would generate through valsalva or frenzel, yet most of us with this as a potential problem, access a degree of BTV in the process which loosens up the eustacian tubes. Anyhow, for now I just wanted to let all those out there know that even a person with natural and easy equalization technique, seems to have the inability to perform valsalva or frenzel equalizing, without the aid of voluntary control of the eustacian tubes. My suggestion for these people is to stop fighting and learn to control the tubes. If you keep in touch I will have lots of info on techniques to assist in this process.

Cheers,

Tyler
 

bolts

New Member
Jun 1, 2004
124
5
0
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jome said:
This caught my eye.

Don't focus on the tongue at first. Most people think, when talking about frenzel that "oh yeah, it's the tongue as a piston thingy".

In fact, the tongue is just the last thing you add on it to top it off. Icing on a cake, so to speak.

I find it much easier to learn (and teach) first to equalize with the cheeks or even a balloon (yeah it sounds funky, but it works). The problem is not usually the tongue, it's the softpalate/epiglottis combo put it's just hard to realize because all the focus is on the tongue.

You know, as soon as I posted that I got to thinking about it, and came across the same conclusion. When I used my 'tongue as a piston', I could generate a little pressure in my nose/sinuses, but not nearly enough to pop my ears, so to speak. I'm thinking it's likely the fact that I can't keep my epiglottis shut while having the soft palate lowered, so the air goes down my throat in addition to my sinuses....go figure. :duh Back to the drawing board for me... :head

It probably wouldn't hurt to get out and practice a lot more either! Obviously...
 

DeepThought

Freediving Sloth
Sep 8, 2002
2,334
410
173
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tylerz said:
My suggestion for these people is to stop fighting and learn to control the tubes. If you keep in touch I will have lots of info on techniques to assist in this process.
Bring it on!! :) (whenever you are ready, it probably deserves a new thread...)
 

JasonWelbourne

New Member
Aug 17, 2004
232
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I realize I guess that this thread might as well be closed but I wanted to second the notion that BTV is the secret to solving this problem. If you can't do it, practice on land as often as you can. You'll never know if your capable of learning it until you try. The importance of being able to open your tubes differs from person to person. My younger brother, for instance, was born with a disorder that caused his body to develop assymetrically, and as a result of this (I assume), his left tear duct will leak air if he pressurizes his sinus cavity before his tubes will open. As a result of this, although he does not yet have the control necessary to perform BTV or frenzel, he can not equalize whatsoever without doing valsava AND opening his tubes manually. I on the other hand did not need to learn BTV at all because my tubes open right up on their own under a slight pressure difference. Nonetheless, knowing BTV makes me a better diver because it frees up my hands when diving with goggles, and gives me another method to employ in case of difficulty.
 

Michael

New Member
Sep 12, 2003
79
18
0
The trouble I have with the mouthfill is that at a certain depth, I begin swallowing, and despite repeated efforts, have had trouble controlling this reflex. Then, once the air is swallowed, I struggle to pull more air up, then swallow it again. It is frustrating. I am not sure why the swallowing reflex is so strong. Is it pressure on the closed glottis created by the vacuum of the shrinking lungs? Or is it pressure on the tracea?

If anyone has struggled with this and overcome it, I would love to hear how.
 

pat fish

staying in the blue zone
Feb 19, 2004
285
36
118
47
thank you very much for bringing the discussion to such an interesting point. :)
i have noticed, that on the one hand equalisation works much better if i shift forward the jaw but on the other hand the use of the tongue as a piston is much harder if i do so. it's like a dilemma for me. shifting forward the jaw seems to help opening the eustacian tubes but the tongue gets ineffective then. maybe i concentrated on the tongue too much (as you propose jome and tyler). i wished i could do more training and cw to get more experience...
your
pat
 

immerlustig

BlueSkunk
Aug 17, 2002
597
90
118
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check this here:

swallowing reflex
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=544934#post544934"]swallowing reflex[/ame]

roland
 
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