• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Ethics and spearfishing...

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

greendiver

Sea fanatic
May 2, 2005
482
59
0
I am currently in Egypt, doing a scuba course and thought to have a great time spearfishing here........

First of all, I have picked up the spearfishing, In the med, and have found it very difficult, it took me quiet some time to make my first decent catch...but am totally addicted now

The question, the ethical one...the one that all of us sometimes have to answer to: (on family parties etc)....."how can you do that?, with a gun, kill the fish with a knife"......people upset etc...

For myself I have found the answer, I will not bother you to much, but the difficulty of the hunting, the "real hunting" and selectivity, satifies me if I ask myself why I am doing this.

Now!! This has changed considerably; Spearfishing here in the red sea is prohibited but I can tell you all one thing!; pictures from spearfishers that live around the place I dive now will not impress me anymore!!!...I never thought that it would be possible to see so much "quality" fish around me!!!

Although I hope to go spearfishing here, with a DB member from Egypt, :wave , I am not sure how I will feel about this!!

I have seen and read about this before: spearfishing in the med is a lot more difficult!!....I think spearfishing here would make me question myself again...

How do people hunt in seas like this? , seas where you see decent grouper at a couple of meters, or a tuna fish that comes to you, near a reef and amost bumps into you, barracudas over 1,5 meter swimming towards you..( I was doing an espetto without a gun...)

Ps...today I saw somebody scuba spearfishing...pathetic!!!
 
You say that spearfishing is prohibited but that you hope to do it!! We really need places where there is no spearfishing so that we and others can enjoy the experiences of coming face to face with big fish that are not afraid.
 
let's point the concet of "difficult"
i agree that spearfishing is probably the only selective way of fishing:you may choose what to shoot or not, you may decide not to shoot fishes of endangered species, or in the period of reproduction et cetera et cetera: these are our most important concepts.
But most of all, spearfishing MUST be DIFFICULT to be ethic: Difficulty marks the difference between hunting and simply killing.
Many ignorant people think that spearfishing is easy, and that we may easily kill huge amounts of fish: this is why they condemn us. That's stupid, i know, but we must confirm every day that it's just stupid prejudice, staying away from cheap glory, giving up fishing where it's too easy. This is my opinion.
 
Andy Davies said:
You say that spearfishing is prohibited but that you hope to do it!! We really need places where there is no spearfishing so that we and others can enjoy the experiences of coming face to face with big fish that are not afraid.
Click to expand...
The poster said that spearing was prohibited in the red sea, he is in Egypt and plans to spear in the Med.
what do you mean we and others? this is a spearfishing forum.
and who said big fish were afraid of spearos? all fish are wary they have to be to survive.
 
Huan,

I read greendivers post twice. It may not be his intention, but the post reads like he intends to spear in the Red Sea. That question aside, big grouper in my part of the world are not afraid of divers when they first see them. They used to come up to meet me as I decended. Once they have been shot at for a while, the survivers can get very very afraid of divers. The same general pattern holds for all species that I have experiance with. Even hogfish get a little spooky after long enough.

Seems like some of you Med guys are getting awfully opinionated without thinking through your opinions. For instance, why is it so hard to spearfish in the Med? When spearfishing got popular right after WWII, 20 kg grouper were common in 10-20 meters, and not spooky at all. Now a fish that size is rare , found only in deeper water and extremely spooky. Why is that? And don't give me the "it was the scuba guys" propaganda. I'd suggest it is intense spearfishing, free and scuba, combined with everybody else's excessive take. The Med conditions being extoled are the result of excessive harvest, some part of which you are responsible for. Consider the possiblity that your opinions are shaped by the conditions you find yourself in combined with the understandable human tendency to consider what you do as somehow superior to somebody else, somewhere else.
Looks to me like some pretty extreme limits on total havest (this means spearos too) are badly needed. Just prohibiting scuba sounds good but isn't likely to help the fish much. Some large closed areas would be a good idea as well and might be the only thing that will work well.

Andy's point about having closed areas where fish are not so sooky and divers are able to see them is well taken. Closed areas work. Fish become much more visible and abundant. I truly love the spearo thrill, and always will, but being able to tickle the belly of a 20 kg grouper that I have no intention of shooting is just as much of a thrill. Other people ought to have the opportunity for the same thrills, both kinds, if that is what turns them on.

Pardon the rant

Connor
 
Last edited:
Bucket One,

Do not start that discussion again, it is impossible to change so many minds.

I am from Spain, them I lived in Venezuela and now I live in Texas. I was related with spearfishing and competitive spearfishing all my life and you need to be in the place to understand each point of view.
I only freedive but know people that scuba and fish very well as well as people that practice both disciplines, like you, but it is almost imposible to explain outside USA that fishing with scuba is not easy and that the divers would not extermine the sea.

By the way I saw the picture of your Record?? Black Grouper, really nice I did not see one of that size since I came from Venezuela.

Cheers

Ivan
 
Reactions: Erik
I have done fishing in both the red sea and the med, in terms of difficulty i could not say i have seen that many discrepancies. The main difference lies in the type of fish and abundance. Some types of snapper found only in the red sea will need aspettos just like the sargo/sea bream in the med. In terms of ethics, I cannot judge others, but what i do is always freedive when spearfishing, i never spearfish in the environmental protectorates, never catch small fish and always eat what we catch. This is what makes sense to me.
cheers
 
Reactions: Hoss Azooz
Andy Davies said:
You say that spearfishing is prohibited but that you hope to do it!! We really need places where there is no spearfishing so that we and others can enjoy the experiences of coming face to face with big fish that are not afraid.
Click to expand...

Dude....you dont get it, I want to have a look.....guys fishing in seas like these, might have other challenges, maybe they fish differently...near reefs it might be a lot easier, but I do not know about the blue yet....
I started this threat....well you read it again...

Ps..can not see where you from...but you must be northern european...because it is probited, you have never done anything that is prohibited!!!
 

Spaghetti!!! I feel the same about it!! however...it is tempting..(to be honest)
 
Guys!!! let me put it this way!! I really enjoy spearfishing and want to keep it that way!

Sometimes...and I think I am not the onlyone, I question myself...I took me some time to find peace with myself and my spearfishing.

I just would like to know how other people deal with this, in my case the evironment changes, so I am stuck with the question again!

All of us sometimes have to deal with people that do not understand what spearfishing is all about, family, friends, or environmental etc..groups.

Personally; I eat my fish, try to be selective, and do not use any scuba equipment whilst...

People that fish in seas like these, will have their own values and ethics, I do not know...just would like to see and learn.
 
Last edited:
Hi Guys,

This is a pretty trenchouis topic so I will try to be careful !

Connor: I agree with you man, but the fish that memorizes the divers as potential threats are mostly territorial fish that made it after being fired at, such as the groupers you mentioned. Other fish fear divers because of their size and their resemblance to other predators. Apart from that, it is without doubt the pollution which deteriorated the Med fish stocks combined with heavy commercial fishing. I used to spearfish in the Med since I was a kid (wow! that makes me sound old!! :hmm ) any way the idea is that we speared in handful of spots regularly, and we had no difficulty in finding good fish. Then tourists started infesting these spots. With more hotels, boats and jet skies the fish eventually were gone.

As for the laws, most government bodies make laws as a result of pressure by certain groups. In our case they are usually environmental groups, tourists authorities and commercial fishing groups. Spearos rarely have some form of legal body to make an opposite pressure for the laws to come out with some compromise :mute . The results are usually total bans like the one we have in the Red Sea. The Red Sea coast on the Egyptian part alone is about 1,000 km. Yet there is no such thing as an open area for spearfishing. I am sure spearos in Egypt will be happy if they were given only 10% of this long coast as a legal zone for spearfishing. I am confident they will be happy “going legitimate” and abandoning the illegal spearfishing in the other 90% leaving it to the scuba divers who like to feed the fish, tickle their bellies, etc.

Gino
 
Gino I agree with You , just to add on some of the "legality issues" in the red sea. I believe a part of it has to do with lack of awareness. Like i said in another thread the number of spearos in Egypt (like in other parts of the world) are really small. there is a general misconception about guns and the degree of damage they do. there is also a difficiency in fishing regulations in general (time of the year/species/sizes etc...) add to that lack of enforcment power (in terms of coast guard boats equipment etc...) which leads to the easy decision of total ban. I believe that there are areas in the red sea (which basically excludes environmental protectorates etc..) where it is definitely ok to spearfish, you have oil rigs etc... there's the med with its rocky bottom i mean you could really regulate it.
I'll give you an example on total bans just so that you get the feel. Jet skiis are banned!!! why because some accidents happened some one died no regulations no enforcement = Total Ban. They are still used though. I believe it is a close analogy at least in principle
cheers
 
the answer that i give most people is this "I spearfish because its humane"

everyone is responsible for killing animals, even vegeterians (monoculture) and people who disagree with any form of hunting to eat have become detached from a fundamental reality - we all need to eat.

what is more humane? mass breeding chickens in tiny boxes, or hunting a wild animal who has experienced life and freedom? and you must agree, all wild animals will be hunted eventually, be it in the jaws of a predator or the edge of a speartip. my girlfriend used to call it free-range fish. (we get something here called free-range eggs where the chickens are allowed to wonder around, and those who feel bad for the boxed in chickens buy them).
so i hunt to eat, and never buy commerically caught fish.

spearfishing is great in that we practice "release and tag" where we only go after the fish we want, with little waste.

as for the ethics of spearfishing in the context of sport, i think thats comepletely species dependant. there are some fish that are very vunerable to spearos and others that are near impossible to shoot. the "sport" in this case is up to the individual, and the "harvest" is up to the governing authorities who need to protect the stocks.
 
Reactions: BatRay, Erik, DeepThought and 1 other person
Marwan: Sure thing man, and you know what caught me by surprise :hmm ; I have realized that in many cases the drive force behind this spearo hostility is pure envy. The line fishermen that we used to meet at the marinas looked to us with envy. We go where they can’t and we see the fish they don’t. They think it is easy and that we are cheating them, so they hate us for it. But they and the other groups have the power arms and we don’t, that’s why you see this ridicules bans.

Gino
 

Asturven...Asturias..Venezuela he?...I live in Spain, lived in venezuela, but originaly am dutch!
En que colegio has estudiado?, yo soy un ex-alumno de colegio los Alamos en Caracas, tenemos la misma edad..mas o menos!
 

I see it this way too!, still I find it frustrating to explain this to other people, what you call "release and tag" sounds good to me.
Tanks for your reply!
Regards, Mike
 
Take what you need to eat and leave it there. We won't go into the Scuba debate as those practising this excuse for a sport will simply....I won't go on.

For me. there remains very little skill in shooting something the size of a small island....and about as quick as one. I read on one thread of people shooting moray eels, static targets...mmmm, right up there ethically with the tank brigade.
 
Robbo66, i'm the one who wrote in this thread that spearfishing must be difficult to be ethic, because difficulty marks the difference between hunting and simpy killing.
But i don't understand what you say about static targets. A grouper hidden in a cave 25 meters deep is a static target, but not an easy prey at all: you must hold your breath ad get there deep, look for it, find it, shoot it right, pull it out from the cave all in apnea, and return to surface alive from 25 mt without breathing. If for you it's easy, please accept my warmest congratulations. For me it's difficult and a bit more than slightly dangerous.
in Italy we say that cave groupers kill more spearos than swiftboats accidents, and it ìs statistically true: in 2005 I read news of at least half a dozen italian spearos who lost their lives trying to pull groupers out of their caves.
For me it is important to mark that target shooting is not the difficulty of spearfishing: many "abolitionist" people say that. They ask: what's sporty in shooting a corvina stuck in a cave? But they ignore that first of all you must reach there, in apnea. They confuse apnea fishing and scuba hunting.
Scuba gives no chance to fishes, it's like hunting birds from a helicopter: they fly and you fly too, but you have a gun: not a loyal duel, just a killing.
ok, i'm making it too long, sorry
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…