Ethics and spearfishing...

[GinoBlue]

For me. there remains very little skill in shooting something the size of a small island....and about as quick as one. I read on one thread of people shooting moray eels, static targets...mmmm, right up there ethically with the tank brigade.

Since we are not target practicing, and not using fire arms, the rule is usually the bigger the fish the harder the hunt. You may need good shooting skills to spear a 1/2kg Jack zipping around you, but once you spear it its over. Now imagine its bigger cosine weighing 30-50 kg. Spearing it might be a little easier but that’s when the hunt starts. On the other hand, let’s not forget that spearing small fish is not a good practice in general. Some countries that allow spearfishing, control the size of the catch for many obvious reasons.

As for the morays, I am not in the habit of spearing them, but take my word for it, they are not an easy shot.

Gino

 

[Erik]

1. Excellent statement Griff, pretty much covers it all.

2. Let's not start about scuba/apnea, it's pointless, and veiled or blatant insults will close a thread quicker than my 6mm tahitian shaft At the end of the day fish are dead- none of us have the right to be elitist. We feed ourselves how we can- whether you believe you are challenged in your pursuit or not is your own business and should be personal.
Go join a debate club if you enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing while ignoring cultural and regional realities.

3. In my opinion Greendiver, do what's legal to feed yourself. If you enjoy the sport of shooting smaller/spooked/bigger/friendly/aggressive/cute/ugly fish, go ahead. The only rule I think we should all follow is that the fish will be eaten by someone.
Peace,
Erik Y.

 

[Erik]

the rule is usually the bigger the fish the harder the hunt. You may need good shooting skills to spear a 1/2kg Jack zipping around you, but once you spear it its over.
Gino

Gino, where I hunt, most of the fish grow to a maximum of 1kg, usually less. They are extremely hard to hit, spooked very easily, and taste great.
I feel less challenged by our 'bigger' fish that are a maximum of 5 kilos but can be fairly stupid and will lie there waiting for me to stick a fork in them :duh
Personally I don't enjoy seeing anything suffer and bolt in agony in its death-throes, so being pulled around by a big tuna/grouper would not be challenging or pleasant for me.
Peace and Merry Christmas,
Erik Y.

 

[Andy Davies]

I work professionally in marine nature conservation and I live within a hundred metres of the sea. Just about everything I do is involved with the sea that includes spearfishing, freediving for crabs and lobsters, surfing, sailing, scuba diving, collecting cockles and mussels etc. I believe in responsible and sustainable use. Some of the posts have referred to spearos having no influence or power over the people who make the regulations but I can say that a responsible user group will have much greater influence over managers than an irresponsible one.

I simply advocate some sommon sense in what we do. Make sure that future generations will be able to enjoy what we have. I visit Brittany, France on a regular basis and it is a desert underwater. There are virtually no bass leaving the local spearos to shoot wrasse. You are really lucky to see a fish of any size. This is mainly due to the intense inshore gillnet fishery there. In recent years, they have even fished spider crabs out of existence.

 

[DeepThought]

So poeple dying or pretending fish and men are "more equal" is ethical?

I agree with what Griff said.
I think sustainable harvest and "humane" dispatch (or farming) of the animal is the only measure for ethics, not difficulty.

I think difficulty is a very subjective term that can't be used (even if it had relevance) anyway:
If it is more difficult to spear in my sea than yours then am I a more ethical person?
If Mr. Smith was born with 14L lungs, take betablockers for a heart condition, is very rich and therefore can afford a yacht to save swimming for 20 mins and has the nicest guns/spears around then is he less ethical?

What if Mr. Z tried both ways and found scuba to be more difficult? is he obliged by ethics to start scuba hunting?

(what about all that "fish run away from tankbacks" anyway?)

What I'm saying is that at the end of the day, if two people spear the same amount of fish of the same species with different (yet selective!) tools I think the world stays the same and (in that case, not to start a philosophical debate) the ethics are the same.

The scuba/free/no nightdives/no-torches seem to me like just another way of regulating harvesting, not the best one I'de think.

 

[GinoBlue]

Erik, You said it man, it’s a personal preference as long as we respect our humanity by eating what we hunt. 1kg fish works fine for me too . 2 of them makes a nice dinner!

Have a happy holiday
Gino

 

[spaghetti]

sustainable harvest and "humane" dispatch (or farming) of the animal is the only measure for ethics, not difficulty. QUOTE]
For Deep thought: You seem to refer to my post, eh? But i'm very close to your idea: as you say, i think spearfishing should be basically sustainable and selective in quality and quantity: this is also my leading concept, believe me. But after sustainability and selectivity, difficulty for me is a third condition necessary. How can i explain in my poor english?

I mean difficulty as a "balance" between predator and prey, by which both have a chance. A balance that is present in nature to prevent each ring of the food chain from break-up. So in my view, difficulty is a kind of "simulation" of this balance: as long as i could buy fish at the supermarket, but i decide to hunt wild fish in the natural environment, i must make it in a way that somehow reflects natural conditions. Conditions in which sometimes the lion catches the zebra, but sometimes the zebra will succeed to run away safe.
PS: i'm just discussing, in respect of any different opinion

 

[rigdvr]

ethics...you know who else wishes they could impose their "ethics" on everyone...PETA.

 

[Robbo66]

Spaghetti, I take your point of view and respect it.
In France I practice 'Apnea' and 'Free Diving', my father in law being an instructor, and feel that perhaps sometimes there is a case for the achievments to be separated. To be a proficient and accomplished in apnea is certainly a feat to be proud of, and adapting these skills to improve spearo hunting techniques can offer enormous rewards. However personally I feel that though it remains impressive to dive 25m apnea, swim into cave and return safely, what I fail to understand is when down there, to shoot a stationary, inquisitive 'clonker' of a fish and heave it back to the surface.

Erik, with you on the 'grouper' analogy but would like to offer my opinion on the ethics of spearfishing as titled....if that's ok with you of course.

Andy, we've a small place in Erquy in Brittany and your totally correct in your observations, totally fished out. They even have a competiton in Erquy
'The Golden Wrasse'...need I say more. Plenty of scallops though, but heavily policed allowing only 30 mins on certain tides.

 

[DeepThought]

A balance that is present in nature to prevent each ring of the food chain from break-up.

We do have the same goal, but I consider a sustainable quota made by unbiased scientists the right way to impose that balance. I consider difficulty irrelevant.

as long as i could buy fish at the supermarket, but i decide to hunt wild fish in the natural environment, i must make it in a way that somehow reflects natural conditions. Conditions in which sometimes the lion catches the zebra, but sometimes the zebra will succeed to run away safe.

I rather more people spearfish selectively on scuba than buy their fish in the market (trawling, bycatch etc, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about).

 

[GinoBlue]

Guys,

I would like to make a suggestion that we use our energy in something more productive and abandon fruitless discussions about "ethics" and similar stuff. I am sure we all have much more valuable information to share and exchange.

Peace

Gino

 

[greendiver]

Guys,

I would like to make a suggestion that we use our energy in something more productive and abandon fruitless discussions about "ethics" and similar stuff. I am sure we all have much more valuable information to share and exchange.

Peace

Gino

Can not believe this!! This very important, there are many countries where this is forbidden!! because of ETHICS!! like my own!!
Man..oohh man....next thing...nobody can go spearfishing!!
Not important...do you guys believe this!!!!....not important...pfffff

 

[spaghetti]

Ok, i realized that i wrote stupid things yesterday: for a while i forgot that people who live in different environments may have different cultures about hunting. I was stupid in this, and i hope it's not too late to apologize to db mates i might have insulted. I mean this from my heart.

ethics...you know who else wishes they could impose their "ethics" on everyone...PETA.

rigdvr, peace. Me i don't won't to impose anything to you: you're my buddiy, not my opponent. My opponent is PETA and people like them. In my nation animal activists aim to a complete ban of spearfishing and declared war on us spearfishers. Unfortunately they have chance to win by now, and i must shoot back using values and ideas as bullets. And so:
-They say we're cruel, i say we're ethic
-They say we make massive killings; I say we're selective
-They say we're ravaging the sea; I say we're sustainable
The winner will be the one to convince public opinion that he's saying no bulls....t. I This is why i hit my drums so loud about ethics, but itìs an inernal affaire of italy. I apologize for having "exported" my own paranoia..
Best wishes,
Spago

 

[Fondueset]

I liked your post. I saw no offense in it.
The sea will tell you how your ethics are.

 

[rigdvr]

no problems with anybody in this thread or the posts in it. Just reminding everyone that there is always going to be someone who thinks what we do is unethical whether it be freedivers looking down on scuba, scuba looking down on longliners, rec fisherman looking down at all of us, or tree huggers looking down at all of the above.

here in the states we do have an organization to protect the rights of spearos, both freedivers and scuba. We got tired of being pushed to the wayside by commercial interests and recreational anglers. I just hink its hard to argue ethics because all ethics really is is perspective and perspective is only relevant to where youre looking from.

 

[Fondueset]

There are good reasons for hugging trees
I forgot to add in the above that i didn't think you took offense either.

By the way - here in my state only four species are legal two spear - three are inedible (okay if you want to make thermometers or mercury switches though) - and ridiculously easy. Meanwhile salmon and lake trout are stocked, abundant to the point of excess and very difficult to approach.

 

[GinoBlue]

Can not believe this!! This very important, there are many countries where this is forbidden!! because of ETHICS!! like my own!!
Man..oohh man....next thing...nobody can go spearfishing!!
Not important...do you guys believe this!!!!....not important...pfffff

Hey man, no offence . I did not mean your thread is not important. It is an important issue for every spearo. Every one of us has to be bound by some ethics; at least what is relevant to his community and the human common sense. My point is that we are not going anywhere with these discussions because we are arguing among our selves. If we need to make changes to the local laws every one of us should raise the argument within his community to create positive awareness of spearfishing. In the meantime we can focus our energy in exchanging useful information.

Gino

 

[greendiver]

Hey man, no offence . I did not mean your thread is not important. It is an important issue for every spearo. Every one of us has to be bound by some ethics; at least what is relevant to his community and the human common sense. My point is that we are not going anywhere with these discussions because we are arguing among our selves. If we need to make changes to the local laws every one of us should raise the argument within his community to create positive awareness of spearfishing. In the meantime we can focus our energy in exchanging useful information.

Gino

Sorry, got a bot carried away! :duh this thread has given me some more ideas about the wholw thing!
You know I am dutch, in my country people look at me like I am some kind of murderer...never met another spearo from my country....yet!
Regards, Mike

 

[Griff]

Sorry, got a bot carried away! :duh this thread has given me some more ideas about the wholw thing!
You know I am dutch, in my country people look at me like I am some kind of murderer...never met another spearo from my country....yet!
Regards, Mike

mike, you should meet your african cousins...their greatest past-time is visvang

 

[greendiver]

mike, you should meet your african cousins...their greatest past-time is visvang

rofl rofl , You know what, I have got family over there, even thought about moving to Durban myself!
The Dutch, ..the adventurers left the country, went to Canada, South africa, Australia etc..., The dutch nowadays are, Likethey say themselves, "grijze muizen...

Afrikaans is te begrijpen, begrijp jij mij ook?
Regards, Mike