Ethics of hunting

[Fondueset]

I thought of bringing up the penis size issue but over on the 'excuses why I can't get into my wetsuit thread'.

 

[covert]

:martial :crutch :ko Debate is what makes this world wonderfull and usually leads to war and nuclear winter but what the hell its all in the name of fun.

Listen guys each to his/her own, now lets all crack a beer and make nice
:friday

PS amphibious is buying

 

[Amphibious]

PS amphibious is buying

buy me a ticket to cape town and I'd be happy to buy the beer

 

[covert]

lol sure just wait till the red tide is gone,,,,,, otherwise we can only drink and drink and drink ..... hey wait ...... thats not a bad idea either

 

[Pastor]

I thought of bringing up the penis size issue but over on the 'excuses why I can't get into my wetsuit thread'.

Not a good idea, it's a commonly known fact that us rebreather spearos have the upper hand in that department rofl

 

[Robbo66]

Not a good idea, it's a commonly known fact that us rebreather spearos have the upper hand in that department rofl

Pastor, have to agree with you there, how's North Wales ??

Amphibious,

Remember this:


"the big difference is that Freediving requires effort and physical skill. you want to shoot a fish @120ft? you EARN it by practicing untill you can dive that deep. scuba hunting alows you to strap on a tank and get this done with little or no effort. I scuba spearfished when I started. I will NEVER go back. to me it is disrespectful to the fish to use scuba. that being said if it;s legal, by all means go out and scuba hunt, it's your right. it is MY right and opinion to belive it to be unethical and unchallenging. it;s not about the kill, it;s about the hunt, I just can;t see the thrill of a "hunt" with scuba tanks".

I understand what your saying re the 'singing pigs', but surely you haven't given up on your convictions for the sake of popularity ??

Jimbo,

The French are really hot on the checking. For example, for clams they only allow 30 mins, once a week with max of 30 during the period....with voulnteers on the beach equipped with bino's who retain the right to confiscate your gear, boat etc if limit exceeded.
Again, scuba banned as would be ridiculously easy offshore to gather lobsters, ormer etc....nobody's mentioned that aspect.

Anyhow, I'll leave it there.....off to bench 500lbs then a game of rugby...you know how macho us free divers are.

Rob


I'll leave it there

 

[Pastor]

North Wales is pretty crap at the moment, great if your a surfer but I want to get in and give my rebreather a go. The rod and line boys have started catching Bass over on the Lleyn which is quite early for us to say the least. So fingers crossed we can all get in soon and lose some of the cabin fever rofl

 

[deckhand mike]

The fish die either way. It's about making a bag limit sustainable for your local areas and making sure they are enforced. Fishing in any form is fun and shouldn't be bagged upon. All this preachy talk of "my dead fish is better than your dead fish" is pretty lame. Spearos talking down to other spearos is kind of sad.

 

[Vankata]

I have been hunting and fishing for a long time now. An My father once told me Ivan (my name) "I go hunting because the rabbit i shoot i will eat, and because the salmon I catch I will eat, if you eat everything you catch it is not a crime or unethical, but if you kill it for sport and don't eat it I don't think its right". So as far as I'm concerned when I catch a couple of crab and a trout, I am doing no wrong even if it is illegal.

The problem is not in if you use a scuba kit or if you use a spear gun, the problem is if you don't care about the fish or the ocean life. If some guy went with the strongest spear gun and the best scuba kit and carefully speared one fish and did not disturb anything else, then brought the fish home and ate it, and then a guy with a home made spear and no other gear went and shot 5 fish 2 for sport and 3 to sell, which guy do you thing did the more ethical thing? What im trying to say is, if it is fun, if it is for your self, and sometimes to sell because there are some men that make money out of spearfishing and still cause less damage than the guy with the homemade spear, if you don't waste the fish and ocean life, I think it is safe to say that it is ok.

 

[mvdiver]

I think scuba spearing is a joke.... Sorry if i offended anyone, but thats just what i see first hand. You can kind of compare it to deer hunting regulations.In my state, the Bow season is about 2 or 3 weeks longer than the shotgun because the kill rate is much lower. It is much harder and takes alot more effort. So, i think scuba diving with a spear shouldnt be in the same category as freediving(of course people always assume i use tanks, bah!). I say no regs on freediving and if you want to scuba dive then maybe a real expensive permit should be required.

 

[Fondueset]

At the risk of ressurecting this allready-irritating-enough-without-further-elaboration thread: I know and respect people who hunt on scuba - so I'm not trying to apply what I'm about to say to everybody who does it - but there are a couple of glaringly repetitive statements that come up in these conversations.

1> 'A dead fish is a dead fish' This highlights a real distinction in orientation and I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen it written - allways by scuba spearos. I personally know no freedive spearos to whom this statement would make any sense at all. It seems to imply that the objective is to 'kill fish'. Without exception every freedive spearo I know does it for the sheer joy and intensity of stalking fish between breaths underwater. It is more about the dive - and the entire context of the experience. Getting a fish is great, but nothing is missing if we don't. If we did it any other way something would be missing.

2>'Many fish are scared of scuba - so it all balances out.' Scuba hunters hold their breath to draw fish in all the time. There is no disadvantage. Say what you will about the 'right and wrong' of it - but scuba requires very little physical exertion and provides so many obvious advantages from a 'fish killing' standpoint that it is absurd to even have the conversation.

The most outspoken scuba spearos on the boards I've visited are coming from an orientation so different from that of any freedivers I know that there is, outside of the technical considerations of spearguns, not enough in common to even have a conversation. I don't care if you want to hunt on scuba - but don't pretend it is even remotely comparable to freediving.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

At the risk of ressurecting this allready-irritating-enough-without-further-elaboration thread: I know and respect people who hunt on scuba - so I'm not trying to apply what I'm about to say to everybody who does it - but there are a couple of glaringly repetitive statements that come up in these conversations.

1> 'A dead fish is a dead fish' This highlights a real distinction in orientation and I can't begin to tell you how many times I've seen it written - allways by scuba spearos. I personally know no freedive spearos to whom this statement would make any sense at all. It seems to imply that the objective is to 'kill fish'. Without exception every freedive spearo I know does it for the sheer joy and intensity of stalking fish between breaths underwater. It is more about the dive - and the entire context of the experience. Getting a fish is great, but nothing is missing if we don't. If we did it any other way something would be missing.

At the risk of helping you perpetuate the argument- I am one of those who has said that "a dead fish is a dead fish" but I wasn't talking about sheer joy, intensity, or other hard-to-measure criteria. I was simply saying that the end result of spearing a fish is the same, with or without scuba. No harm, no foul. I have done it both ways, and I do it only while freediving now. I agree with you that the entire experience is so much more satisfactory while freediving. But if someone else doesn't share my subjective evaluation of the relative merits, then spearfishing is still the most ecologically sound method of taking fish, whether or not scuba is used. If we want to rail at someone, we should rail at gill netters, long liners, and other people who indiscriminately kill tons of bycatch.

I'd also like to point out that "intensity" of experience can have many meanings. In my misspent youth using scuba in the 1950s, I had rather intense experiences shooting fish that weighed two or three times as much as I did and then being taken on wild rides through corroded wrecks, oil rigs, or bridge construction debris. If you have not done that, don't try to tell someone who has that he didn't feel a lot of intensity.

2>'Many fish are scared of scuba - so it all balances out.' Scuba hunters hold their breath to draw fish in all the time. There is no disadvantage. Say what you will about the 'right and wrong' of it - but scuba requires very little physical exertion and provides so many obvious advantages from a 'fish killing' standpoint that it is absurd to even have the conversation.

Well, I'll still say it again. If you want to shoot a white sea bass in Southern California, scuba puts you at a severe disadvantage. You can often shoot them while sitting quietly on the surface in the kelp. That requires even less physical exertion that putting on scuba gear.

Admittedly, unless you stone the fish, it can require a lot of exertion retrieving the fish after it ties up in the kelp on the bottom, but you have to shoot a fish before that becomes a factor, and you are not likely to shoot one on scuba.

I like freedive spearfishing for all the nebulous reason you mention, and I agree that having conversations with some scuba spearos is as if we spoke different languages, but I'm just trying to say that its fruitless to condemn then when they are doing no harm as long as they don't exceed legal limits on take of fish. I have seen many freedive spearos exceed legal limits, and the fact that they held their breaths did not reduce the impact.

Judging an activity based on your own perceptions of sheer joy and intensity is like arguing over which films are best. Most of the films that my wife and I watch have English subtitles and/or are in limited release. People who watch the blockbuster, mindlessly violent films that fill the theaters probably question my taste, just as I question their taste. But there is no right or wrong involved.

 

[covert]

I beleive this thread should be closed as it just cuases aggression in a otherwise friendly community.

 

[Fondueset]

I agree with you Bill. I was mainly harping on people trying to make it sound as though the two are comparable and the dead fish argument - which I respectfully submit ignores the whole basis of distinction. (Covert - I don't know about everybody else - But Bill is one of those people who can sustain an argument without getting ugly about it) I understand you are talking in the different context of fishing methods - which is definitely more objective. Freediving really is all about the unquantifyable stuff.

My bias is obvious, of course, but I'm not judging scuba spearos as a group - even though it does sorta sound that way. Basically I just keep hearing the same lame arguments - which, honestly, are probably started by freedivers. When I was a kid I did hunt on scuba a few times. It was pretty lame - but we don't have fish big enough to drag us around here.

Reminds me of the South Park episode where everybody starts driving hybrids. Instead of Smog it creates and even worse form of pollution called 'smug'.

Mainly I did a helluva lot of great diving in really cold water this weekend and didn't get enough sleep :vangry

Also the dipshit-written spearo laws here in Michigan are a result of the perception that it's easier to dive down 50 feet, in water optimistically 50 degrees, holding your breath and wait, motionless, for a walleye to come swimming over than it is to lay around in the sun drinking beer. Fair or not the use of scuba contributes to that perception and half the battle here is getting the two separated in the reeling (no pun intended), drunken minds of the anglers. The 'freediving is harder' argument has, I hope, a better chance of winning (if any at all) in this political environment. When I see guys talking about trophies, huge fish and killing just for the fun of it it gets under my skin because that is exactly the sort of thing that contributes to the angler's perception of underwater hunting as a threat, which results in the kinds of laws we have here in Michigan.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I agree with you Bill. I was mainly harping on people trying to make it sound as though the two are comparable and the dead fish argument - which I respectfully submit ignores the whole basis of distinction. (Covert - I don't know about everybody else - But Bill is one of those people who can sustain an argument without getting ugly about it) I understand you are talking in the different context of fishing methods - which is definitely more objective. Freediving really is all about the unquantifyable stuff.

It is indeed.

It occurs to me that I could have made my real point with far fewer words than I did in that last post.

While we may be able to argue that we are better than they are, or more athletic than they are, it doesn't follow that that is a basis for making what they do illegal.

After all, if we didn't have someone to compare ourselves too and make us feel good about ourselves, how could we maintain a feeling of superiority?

 

[apnea_beast]

i think the key to ethics in spearfishing is hunting within sustainable limits. finding out the right number we can take that is renewable year after year. it wouldn't matter how you killed fish if you stayed within sustainable limits. it seems the pattern today is to push a fishery towards collapse then close it down when it is commercially extinct. why not find out how much we can take so that the the same amount is replaced naturally next year. i also feel it is a spearfishers imperative to improve their aim, and stalking skills and to only take good shots out of respect for the fish. another component of this would be to only use a gun which shoots straight.

as for freedive vs scuba. freediving requires way more athleticism, passion and discipline to excel at which i think fosters much more respect for the ocean. if you've endured mental and physical pain in order to improve at something you love you are going to value that thing much more. i like the fact that the people who are commited to freediving have access to deeper reefs not becuase of how much money they can spend on tanks and gear but becuase they have invested time and energy in disciplining their bodies. not that extreme scuba spearfishers like the helldivers haven't endured pain or discomfort in their hunting. i dont think any scuba guys spend off days doing breatholds or pool training though. in general the more challenging something is the more character is required to be good at that thing.

 

[cdavis]

There is much truth in the idea that scuba spearos and freedive spearos are coming from such very different places that it is hard to communicate. I never thought of it that way, but it makes a lot of sense. However, I don't think you have the reasons correct. For example:

I've always preferred to freedive and, until not all that long ago, was also very much into loading all the coolers full. If scuba was required, that was ok. My objective was definately to "kill fish." My objectives have changed, recognizing that the resourse just won't stand the preasure, but I know freedivers who still have that mentality, including those who would not consider using scuba. I have too many pics of 3 or 4 exhausted freedive spearos with big grins and enough fish to cover the bottom of a 17 ft skiff. Sorry, but "kill, Kill, KILL!, isn't limited to scuba.

Physical exertion? Come with some of my friends who still scuba the way I used to. I promise you will be exhausted before those guys are ready to call it a day.

But, now that I've had a chance to blow off some steam, back to the idea that scuba and freedivers are coming from different places. I think that is true, and aesthetics(a very individual perception) is obviously part of it. History is too. The Europeans have a history of lax regulation that allowed scuba spearos to be a large part of destroying their grouper populations. Apparently the scuba guys got blamed for it entirely. Can't blame Europeans (much) for hating scuba, even if, in truth, freedivers would have done the same job, just a little slower.
Are there other factors? Can we use this idea to help bridge the gap? This seems like a productive idea to pursue.

Connor

 

[spaghetti]

The 'freediving is harder' argument has, I hope, a better chance of winning (if any at all) in this political environment. When I see guys talking about trophies, huge fish and killing just for the fun of it it gets under my skin because that is exactly the sort of thing that contributes to the angler's perception of underwater hunting as a threat, which results in the kinds of laws we have here in Michigan.

I agree, but you know a funny thing? The same debate, with the same things you say, is going on also in my country, even if over here scuba hunting became illegal more than 30 years ago and still is severely forbidden.
Two strange features despite the restrictive regulation:
1)Illegal poachers still hunt on scuba despite the heavy bounty (3000 euro and all the gear confiscated IF you're busted), and they really do overkill of groupers. Because if they have to risk such a big bounty, then it must be for a big prize (it must be worth the risk). So they "kill" whatever they can regardless harvest limits.
2) After 30 years of scuba hunting being illegal, most of the people have still the perception of spearfishing=scuba=overkill, and this is why we spearos are being banned from more and more areas. We desperately try to mark the difference between freediving and scuba hunting in the public debate, but it doesn't seem to be any persuasive on common people and politicians.

Why this?

 

[Fondueset]

Thanks for your broader perspective Cdavis. All good points. I think I was reacting more to a mentality I've seen on some other boards.

I'd be thrilled if I could get them to just let us do it during the winter! Then it's really hard - the fish are edgy, but don't move around much and are mostly ate least 50 feet down. Jon, over in Wisconsin,
and I would be the only one's doing it

Here the attitude comes from really catering to a very strong Angling community. As a group they tend to interpret any sort of interest in what they want to catch as a threat - including other species of fish. Some of the species we are prohibited from hunting are killed and discarded by anglers.

 

[apnea_beast]

i think the best thing we can do as spearos is focus on taking good shots, always trying to improve our accuracy and number of stone shots. we should try to have the best ratio of shots to fish landed, taking only what we need to eat. it is our responsibility to communicate this ethic to new spearos and also to share it with non-spearos. trophy hunting and hunting for numbers should be frowned upon. tournaments should take shot placement into account when determining scores to help steer the focus of competition in that direction. i think it is also a good idea to always have a plan for what you are going to do with the fish before you go.