Ethics of hunting

[Robbo66]

It seems these scuba vs free threads go on and on and no one ever changes his mind. Having said my piece early in this one, I really did resolve to stay out of it, but now you have sucked me back in.

I don't know why I'm dumb enough to think I could actually cause anyone to take a wider view, but here goes with an example I have used many times before.

In Southern California, our most sought-after species, white sea bass, are very sensitive to noise and movement. I have seen them bolt at the squeak of ears being equalized. We always remove our snorkels from our mouths as we start the dive so that we won't scare them with a stream of bubbles. Some people punch holes in the top of their hoods so as to make sure all the air gets out so that a stray bubble won't escape the suit and spook the fish. As you can imagine, the sound of a regulator and all those exhaust bubbles would be absolutely out of the question.

Our other most popular gamefish, the yellowtail, may not be quite as sensitive, but it is also very hard to approach using scuba.

So, if we really want to be "sporting" doesn't it follow that we should use scuba gear? If we hunt them while holding our breaths, aren't we taking advantage by sneaking up on them silently and not giving them proper warning?

That is really a rotten thing to do, and should be banned.

Hi Bill,

Beautiful part of the world you live in, and an interesting point of view though not really addressing the issue of those who shoot huge docile fish on scuba.
The 'my fish are more timid than your fish' arguement wears a little thin as you can still breath hold at depth, release air and move to another area. You are at a huge advantage...unfairly IMO, particulalry in the Med and Atlantic.

Rob

 

[GreekDiver]

Hi,

I promise I'm not comparing to my surroundings. We too have very strong currents and a massive tidal range leading to poor vis, but we wouldn't consider diving in 3ft vis for a flounder at 50ft....with a bottle on....we'd go and do something else.

As you say, you don't like Scuba, really hate it infact...I bet the fish do too, aswell as the majority on here and practicing .......so why do it ?

It remains much harder to free dive in current, as we constantly end up doing at differing levels of tide...but please don't tell me that it's harder to Scuba....just won't wash I'm afraid.

Is there not a better arguement for justification to this excuse for a sport than 'Currents' ??

If there is...I've never heard one.

Rob

When the visability is constantly poor, you have no choice unless you dont go. I rather get into the water than not. You wouldnt consider diving in it because you get better clarity during certain seasons. When its constantly poor vis you just deal with it. You really get used to poor vis and imo, it makes you a better freediver. If you are comfortable in 5ft or less visability, diving in clear water is so much easier. You seem to be much calmer when you can see farther.

When did i say scuba was harder? I read my post again but i dont see myself saying its harder? Fast current and extremely poor vis is a good enough excuse i thought. Like i said, i breathhold 99% of the time with times of 1:30-1:45. 50 feet is shallow for me but when its ripping current with 3 ft visability, it feels impossible to freedive.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Hi Bill,

Beautiful part of the world you live in, and an interesting point of view though not really addressing the issue of those who shoot huge docile fish on scuba.

The point to which I responded was much broader than huge docile fish. You said that anyone on scuba was too lazy or too unethical, period. I was simply showing that its more "ethical" (if ethical means more difficult) to use scuba where I dive.

The 'my fish are more timid than your fish' arguement wears a little thin as you can still breath hold at depth, release air and move to another area. You are at a huge advantage...unfairly IMO, particulalry in the Med and Atlantic.
Rob

I'm not sure I'm following you. Do you mean use scuba, hold your breath, release air, then hold your breath again while moving forward? If so, I'm afraid the fish are not quite that dumb or insensitive to noise.

Speaking of the Med- I've always heard that dentex are very wary and hard to approach even while holding your breath. I'm wondering if scuba would scare them too.

 

[GreekDiver]

you get more fish freediving anyways because you are very quiet and can maneuver easily.

I live in florida now where the visabilty is pretty darn clear. I have never used scuba here and never will.

 

[miles]

Hiya

What really amazes me is that when-ever anyone mentions scuba spearing, the freediving spearo's tend to be very vocal on HOW much more sporting it is/how much more ethical/how much more difficult/etc/etc/etc THEIR methods are.

Let me relate a story: when i was a angler, this is prior to my spearing or even snorkling days, i witnessed a spearo come out of the water from one of my local fishing spots. He had shot probably 50kg's worth of fish, whilst i and my friends stood, fishless on the rocks!! My initial re-action was "DAMN!! THATS UNFAIR!!" My thoughts at the time were that all this guy did was get into the water and shoot the fish. No skill needed.

How-ever, when i started spearing, i soon realised HOW much skill is needed and thats its not all that easy.

Similarly, i've read in a old copy of HSD of spearo's on scuba free-shafting fish at INSANE depth, often coming back battered and bruised. I vividly recall a picture of a spearo with his arm bleeding, battle-scars of some fish. This article made me realise that there is more to scuba spearing than meets the eye. Think about it. How much time does a scuba diver have at 30m+?? I can't remember my dive tables from my open water 1 course, but i'm pretty sure its less than 20minutes. On the flip side, in shallow water, like 10m, a scuba diver has alot more time, but in water that shallow, a good free-diver would outfish a scuba diver quite easily.

Ultimately, we spear because it is FUN. Whether it is on scuba on freediving, who cares?? As long as you're having fun and ENJOYING what you're doing AND it's legal in your country!!

Regards
miles

 

[GreekDiver]

my thoughts exactly.

 

[Oldsarge]

Let's keep our manners, gents, and avoid disparaging another's style. As Bill said, these arguments go forever and noone ever changes his mind. Don't force me to close this thread.

 

[GreekDiver]

Let's keep our manners, gents, and avoid disparaging another's style. As Bill said, these arguments go forever and noone ever changes his mind. Don't force me to close this thread.

I don't think anyone is swearing or insulting. I don't think its necessary to close any thread for a debatable discussion. I enjoy listening to other people opinions on certain matters even if its a heated debate as long as personal insults are out of it.

my 2 cents

 

[icarus pacific]

I don't know one person who scuba's to spear....and I would not want to. Rob

And now you do. Pleasure's mine. :hmm

 

[covert]

lol icarus, yeah guys im going to stop adding to this thread since this topic is just too opinionated. I think allot of people feel strongly about spearing without tanks, and well some people think its perfectly fine.

I guess we all have a right to do whatever we please as long as its within the boundries of your local law. I am going to stick to my guns on this one though and prefer to spear without scuba equip, as for me the fun is in challenging myself.

I have to agree with miles though and admit that yeah if you want to spear at 30-40m depth then yeah I could see a use for scuba. But im content diving 15-20m on my own lung capacity and finding my own supper,

 

[Robbo66]

Let's keep our manners, gents, and avoid disparaging another's style. As Bill said, these arguments go forever and noone ever changes his mind. Don't force me to close this thread.

We are, this is a debate as greek Diver says....this is what forums are for, sharing experiences and offering opinions. I get the feeling that you dive on Scuba ??


Miles,
Scuba Spearo is banned for a reason in France and the UK.....because it is considered too easy and generally unsporting. Fish,as I'm sure we are all aware tend to be no deeper than 20 metres, a depth at which is comfortable to Free Spear to.
Again, I simply disagree that at 10mt a Free Diver will return less fish than one on scuba. You can breath hold on Scuba, obviously without surfacing, and move to another spot. Surely there is less disturbance than from a free dive down, breath hold for 1:45 and a re-surface ???



Rob

 

[romek]

I would like to try spearing with SCUBA to be able to comment with some experience, from what I have seen it should only be easier shooting any species in most places (swell, launch sites, dive time would in comparison to not using SCUBA negatives) with SCUBA than without.

Based on this and the fact that I have not shot with SCUBA before I would have to say that the fish should be given more of a chance not us. If we wipe em out in shallow waters then using SCUBA to wipe them out at deeper waters should be second thought.

To be honest if I were really against shooting fish then the with or without SCUBA would not make a difference.

I think in truth those that argue the point very strongly perhaps know that we should not really be shooting fish either way. Very few of us need the food and we are assisting to spoil it for our children and future generations.

So I hang my head in shame hoping/wonder if one day I will grow up ? stop shooting the fish and be able to show my kid/s how beautiful and extensive the sea life is.

 

[Spaniard]

It is also banned in Spain and Italy. Interestingly it used to be legal in Italy up until the '70s I think and it pretty much wiped out the entire inshore grouper population. Commercial fishermen rarely caught them in nets because med grouper are sedentary cave-dwellers and there was not a line fishery for them. Their absence therefore was put down to scuba-spearos and I believe this was a strong argument in banning scuba-spearing.

 

[strangelove]

I have a question for the euro-divers, when spear fishing with scuba was allow in UK, France and IT, was there a fish quota system to go along ? Or one could just killed as many groupers as he or she wants ?

 

[Spaniard]

I have a question for the euro-divers, when spear fishing with scuba was allow in UK, France and IT, was there a fish quota system to go along ? Or one could just killed as many groupers as he or she wants ?

Technically it's legal in UK but BSAC condemn it; as far as I know there was never any quota system in place. In the UK the only advantag I can see for anyone wanting to scuba-spear would be to hit some of the deeper wrecks for big cod perhaps? I'm not into it though.

 

[Spaniard]

I can't remember the title but Jacques Cousteau's first book talks about his early experiences with spearfishing big grouper in the med, partly driven by hunger because of the Nazi occupation during WWII. He then went on to realise how quickly the grouper were disappearing from inshore waters and then became ardently opposed to spearfishing.

 

[ocean_314]

What a thread! It seems in all sports there are purest who think ther way is better. in fishing it now using lures not bait is the purest way. Many hunters think the bow it the way to go and guns are cheating.
The bottom line is that if the indivual is enjoying himself and is eating what he kills and is not harming the population then its all good.

 

[Jimbo]

Good point.... if you have never hunted on scuba you really aren't qualified to say how it differs from breathhold hunting based on anything other than hearsay. The overwhelming majority of the guys doing deep technical dives for big groupers are commercial spearos. They get time for one shot after going down hundreds of feet, have long decos on the way up and risk their lives to make a living....tough job but just as legal here as hook and line and without the bycatch.

I have slowly switched over to mainly breathhold hunting, although I still love to eat lobsters and it's tough to get those without scuba in 60 feet or deeper, I take a gun along and shoot a couple fish while checking the holes for bugs on tanks and don't feel guilty about that when it is legal here in Florida. A day of freediving kills a hell of a lot more fish than a day of scuba around here because there is more time in the water. I have started to see kingfish reguarily now while freediving which I never saw in 8 years of scuba hunting. I prefer freediving, it is more peaceful, less gear and game fish let you get near to them, but I won't give up my lobster addiction and taking a few legal fish on scuba while catching them during the season to take a moral stand on something that is not against the law here and feeds my family fresh fish and lobster. my .02

 

[Robbo66]

What a thread! It seems in all sports there are purest who think ther way is better. in fishing it now using lures not bait is the purest way. Many hunters think the bow it the way to go and guns are cheating.
The bottom line is that if the indivual is enjoying himself and is eating what he kills and is not harming the population then its all good.

You managed to omit the minor factor of the difficulty in 'holding your breath' in your hunter/bow/gun analogy.

Scuba does harm the population...the fish population ......as was indicated by Spaniard. Hence it's been banned in many countries in Europe.

It's nothing to do with being a purist, it's to do with being ethical and both in terms of the environment and the sport.

 

[strangelove]

I think a quota system , if respected also in place for every one, may have prevent what happen in those places. We have that in Alaska, you can only take 5 black rock fish no matter how you fish, scuba, line, free dive. Two halibut, etc

That being stated I see the same problem in Brazil, since the quotas are not respected, free divers will only take a certain number of groupers because it is hard to keep going that deep, but there divers using air compressors and aqualungs taking way more then their fair share.

Perhaps that is the reason of so much arguing in this thread, the fact of the matter if all the fisherman had an ecological sense, there would be fish for every one regardless of the method of capturing, but that is never the case.

I have live in U.S. for 15 years in and out, I think U.S. does a great job managing their fish stocks with quota systems, probably the reason the free divers and the scuba divers can co-exist without shooting each other !