Euro guns

[rigdvr]

I know I am opening a can of worms here but to all the euro gun owners out there, what do you look for in a good euro gun?

In 2000 I lived in the keys for about 6 months and used an AB biller 48 special for my reef hunting. I anticipate a return trip in the future and believe my MT#4 will be overkill for everyday use...dont get all worked up IYA-Istill :inlove my Riffe...anyhow I am leaning towards a eurogun but I am totally unfamiliar with them. As much as I love my lumber(that ones too easy Sven...), I think I would really enjoy a fast tracking and light gun.

Or I could just win that MT 2 for snapper in my clubs tourney on Oct. 12 and this would then be irrelevant...

Hey Don...you getting ready for Isadore or what? If you thought the gulf was nasty earlier this year wait till you see the seas this week!

 

[Iyadiver]

I think Euro gun offer simplicity of a single rubber and good penetration on its micro size 6.35mm or the 7mm shaft. Many hunters judge power by penetration, so Euro is powerful enough cause with a proper rubber, it does offer good penetration and thus many kill. Being light and many are reasonably priced, it does make a great starter gun. Fast tracking make it another bonus.

Think of it this way, a Euro gun is a .22 Rimfire Rifle and bigger guns like an MT3 is a 308 caliber. Which rifle will you take to hunt a Bengal Tiger ? Most go with 308 but in my country the poachers love .22 cause they want the skin not be damaged by big bullet and they shoot with precision. Technicaly both can kill the tiger but 308 is more forgiving. I had a 100 lbs deer once with a 4.5mm /0.177 airgun, u might not believe it but it is true. The skull of that deer is only like 2mm thick where my pellet entered and my pellet penetrated the brain. It dropped dead after only 3 steps.This is a stray dear which is not supposed to be in my small game hunting ground. Later my friends with more powerful 4.5mm scuba charged airguns were taking big ones with horns ( what do u call those antena on the head ?? ) using a tree stand. Brain was the target. They had great success. No more aiming the heart and looking for blood trail. Same unique way bow and arrow hunter in the USA are taking big games.

Some Mosad agent uses .22 pistol where the FBI is using 10mm.
Precision shooting is what .22 shooters seek, workable in close quater shooting.

Once a spearo is hooked to a Euro gun or timber guns, they swear it is the best there is for them. Unlike when chasing girls, your girl always look LESS attractive than the girl at the next table. Since not all spearos are open minded and have many-many guns, whatever they are stuck with and happy with is the BEST. Euro being more affordable and so many styles and brands to choose from, naturaly more people own them.

Later if we argue that timber guns offer more power & range, the Euro answer will be :

A. Learn better stalking and apnea thus u can get closer to your prey.

B. Any fish that is out of the range of my Euro, it doesn't deserve to be shot.


A Euro fanatic will also tell you :

A. Why need 4 bands when 1 band can do it ?


I think in the end it will come down to preference, hunting area and the intended game species and ur hunting skill.

Big timber guns, real powerful ones, do not appear out of nowhere. It appear out of the need of the intended species. If a hunter is after some 200 lbs Tuna or bigger, his big guns are inventions or tools which he need to try to maximize the chances of nailing it. If anyone goes out on a dream trip and spend thousand of dollars and at the risk of being a dinner instead of looking for dinner, any possible mean to do the hunt in the best fashion ( in his opinion ) is what he will do. They will not take the reason......SHIT !!! that 200 lbs Tuna is out of range for my 5 meter effective gun. Powerfun guns can offer better chance than less powerful one.......that simple, at the cost of extra recoil and slow tracking...can't win all.

If a world spearfishing meet is held at Gualadape island on the peak of giant Tuna season, I wonder what kind of guns will the spearo carry ????? Since most spearfishing comp mainly results in fishes under 100 lbs, a Euro has its place and very popular cause it track fast. Euro fanatic will have the say that Euro gun is the more popular choice for competitive people and indeed it is an adequate tool.


As for me ( only me...he he he ) I can not yet love Euro gun because :

I do not live in a country where Euro guns are available in quality and quantity like in the US or Europe. I have not get my hands on real quality Euro, so I do not know how to love one yet. All the Euro (rubber ) I seen is like a toy like quality because my reference is a Riffe. I do like a pneumatic, and it is a Euro. I got no complaint of my Cyrano.........why.....because at Cyrano power level, the engineering is decent. Also there is no other reference to compare it with......how can I not love it ? Ha ha ha.

I admire good engineering and tough spearguns that take massive beating, Euro RUBBER guns component is still well below my expectation, not that it is not adequate for the job, I just like robust design like a Riffe. I feel comfortable with a Riffe but not a Euro ( YEP haven't seen them all ). Once my confidence is low, how will I hunt with it ?

I am power crazy, Euro guns do not allow me to play with too much power. I enjoy strong recoil ( yes, it is funny ), it make me feel I am holding a genuinely powerful gun. I also enjoy shooting fishes as far away as my gun permit. In contrast to good spearos where they try improving stalking technique and want get closer to the fishes, me a land based hunter before being a spearo find a long shot added the overall accuracy difficulty and thus increased level of the hunt excitement. I guess each seek different criteria.

I don't find being able to get close to a fish as a challenge, I too do not like shooting a fish from too close. Sniper attitute ?

So my final say is that Euro gun is rather fragile for me and don't offer the recoil I like.

Just my US$2.00 worth, 2 cents can't keep up with the inflation.

IYA

 

[rigdvr]

How did I know your post would say something like that? Like I said I love my Riffe but I definately would like another option in my gun bag for shallow to medium reef hunting. With the prices I have seen on mid-range euro guns, getting one doen't require a bank loan(though some are quite pricey as well). I just dont want to get a piece of crap since I have no idea what I should be looking for!

Specific Q's...
1. length-?this gun is primarily for small to medium fish close to the bottom and in holes...keys type hunting...

2. shaft-anyone try those riffe euro shafts? I'd rather not go back to metal wishbone...hawaiian or threaded? remember, reef gun.

3. bands-they just look odd in the pics i've seen...size, ect.

4. Any make/model recommendations are welcome as long as this doesnt turn into another fin poll...(my gun is great and all others suck)
:naughty

IYA...as for your 30 kts. max winds...check out Isadore in the g. of m.-category 4 and builing(130 mph+) somebody is going to get smacked on the coast, just not sure who. Even if it is not here we will probably have 15+ ft seas for the next week or so!

 

[andrsn]

hey rig,

aquiles is about to pick up a rabitech from florida freedivers. he's been using his buddy's (since i won't let him use my omer anymore) and he loves it. says it's built better than the rob allen and the grip's very comfy. definitely get the riffe euro shaft, too.

aquiles has the omer pelagic reel that he uses and swears by(in 60' or less, though), but i'll take my floatline setup anyday of the week. my technique differs quite a bit from aquiles', but even though both are effective, he's more prone to bend his shafts.

my omer master is 116cm and has plenty of range. a 110cm gun is great for all around reef-ing down there. M-2(here on the forums) picked up a 110cm railgun and seems to like it. he'll be at kk'03.

drop aquiles a line if you have any q's on the rabitech.

good luck,
andrsn

 

[Iyadiver]

:mute :mute :mute....sorry Kapiten ....

 

[Jay Styron]

Hey Rig,
Just my 2 cts., on the euros(I have 4). For MOST situations in the Keys a gun from 90-120 would be a good size. I primarily shoot a 110 w/ either a 7mm shaft or the riffe/euro shaft. I've shot everything from AJ's to snapper and its worked fine. The only time I've had any difficulty is if I'm looking under coralheads and have to get really close, then its hard to hold a long gun out enough to get a shot and still see. Most of your shots though will be at fish in the open. I would recommend sticking w/ the articulated wishbone that will come w/ the gun. They are designed to work w/ the gun, personally I've never had any problems w/ mine that weren't my own fault. I'd also stick w/ the tahitian tip, easy to get fish off and more streamlined. The bands--18 or 20mm, I'd lean towards the 20's myself, never hurt to have a little extra power, especially if you moved up a shaft size. My personal choice is the Esclapez Concept Pro or the Phantom, but I've heard good things about Omer also. I also use a reel and clip my floatline off to my belt. Hope this helps.
Jay

 

[tuomo]

Hi,

Dont have much experience on different guns, but i'll tell you what i think of my euro gun.
I have a 75cm omer alumnium, which is a great gun for our waters.
What i have learned is that my omer has effective range of about 1,5 - 2 m from the muzzle. It is very accurate and the trigger works fine.
Overall the gun isnt the limiting factor, the problem lies more in me, not being as good spearo as needed.

Omer alumnium comes with 16mm rubbers, and for me that has been enough power so far. If any luck ill move into some place nicer for diving and spearing. , and can justify buying a bigger more powerfull gun..

Tuomo

 

[Wishbone]

Hey!

I never used a blue water gun, so I am not in a position to make any comparison. The long powerful guns are just unappropriate for our waters.

So I'll go directly to the questions.

Length - if the gun is going to be used for holes or for ambush/stalking technique I'd pick the 90 cm version. The reson is that if you have relatively small pray, that can hide in smaller caves, the longer gun is inappropriate. The 90 cm gun is quite versatile for Europe. The 100+ versions we use only for ambush + good visibility.

Shaft - assuming that those keys would include many kinds of species of different size - 7mm

Bands - the above (heavy shaft + shorter gun) leaves you no choice on the bands - 20mm Imersion Megabooster (I'm specifying the brand since I've tried them all and so far those are the best). The length should be 20 cm. The shaft will be a 2-cut for sure, so you should use the 1st cut for caves with smaller species.

On the brand of the gun itself - well - pick any of the top 90 cm models if that won't be your main gun. My personal preference is for OMER due to the comfortable handle and the strong trigger. But would it be comfortable for you too?

IYA - about the competitions - the reason for using mainly Euro guns is quite complex.

1. There is always a maximum size limit due to environmental reasons.

2. The organizers pick zones where both blue water and reef hunting is possible to provide equal opportunities (otherwise it would more or less predetermine the winner).

3. Bonification is given not only on the size, but also for every different species and for each fish.

So at the end it appears that the best is to hunt on medium sized fishes and not to rely on 1 single 200 lbs. tuna. A fresh example is the last World Champ. in Tahiti where during the first day the local boys tried to hunt on large species and lost the title because of that!
I won't be surprized if the same thing happens in Brazil this year or in Tenerife in 2006.

Ivan

 

[donmoore]

Isadore

Rigdvr,
Yea Isadore my end the blue water here for the year. This coming weekend is my only free weekend until the last weekend in October. Dam shame. My wife and I just developed a way to eat barracuda that is fantastic. She just fries it with oil and salt which makes it a little chewy like ribs or something, and then we eat it with catsup. Catsup is the key! It’s like the difference between eating French with and without it.

As far as Isadore, I live in the highest elevation area of the coastal bend, about 26’ above sea level, so high waves should not be a problem. I lived on the barrier Island (Padre Island) when the last hurricane hit. Fell off the top step of an 8-foot latter a 2 AM, putting plywood up. Severally sprained my ankle, but there was no time to let heal so I put on some high top leather boots, cranked the straps tight, and keep going. Took my boat, wife, kids, and all the belonging we could fit in two cars and left.

It was a category 4 and the eye hit about 60 miles south of us. Cut a channel 4 miles long right through the barrier Island. Only damage to our community was a few roofs and street signs. A part of storm spun off and hit land about 60 miles north of us doing a lot of damage.

The storm is forecasted this morning to move toward you, but the margin of error could put it at my door-step easily. I haven’t made any preparations yet. The windows on my current house are much smaller than my previous house, so I’m not sure I will board them. I’m still in limbo.

Be safe. As far as the gun, if it was me, I would save money and take a band of the MT-4 and use it. Also no learning curve to get efficient with it, but remember this advice is from a newbie.
Don

PS The best fishing day I have ever had in the Gulf was exactly one week after the category 4 came through four years ago.

 

[Mattedhead]

Another option: (This should please the Riffe Lovers out there)

If you are hesitant to commit to a Euro gun, but want something in that size that is fairly light and fast tracking...check out the Riffe C-2(~100cm). It is rear handled, and has a slim teak stock. It is what I would picture a wooden Euro gun to be. And for the past 3 years it has been nearly indestructible. It is extremely versatile as the set-up options are numerous. I have used it in many different situations on fish from 3 to nearly 50lbs. The largest was taken with 2 small bands and a 6.5mm shaft. One band is often enough for smaller fish and rock/reef diving. Or throw 3 x 20" 5/8 bands, heavier shaft, two wraps of shooting line, and a breakaway rig, and you are ready for most anything we see around here.

No disrespect to the Euro contingency, just thought I would throw another option your way. I'm looking at a 70-75cm Euro myself right now

Personally, I suggest you shoot a monster snapper and end the day with a cold beer and a shiny new MT-2...but a back-up plan is always good. Good luck in the tournament.

 

[stu newton]

euroguns

hey guys/gals, just my two cents re. euroguns . I have 3 beuchat mundials 75,90,115, for varying fish ,conditions they all shoot identical, by this i mean there are no aim hi for 115,aim low for 75 i believe this is true of most euroguns but i do hear of inconsistency with riffe(sorry)IMHO beuchat rules!

 

[Shadowkiller]

Re: euroguns

Originally posted by stu newton
IMHO beuchat rules!

Sorry mate but Rob Allens have that honour.

And for wood I will go for a Riffe everytime.

I find that Euro guns such as my RA is much better suited to sniping work. My Riffe has brute force behind it (3 bands) but the smooth release and accuracy of the 110 and 130 RA's make them prefect for long shots at small targets. But I wouldn't try to clobber a big tunny with them.

After using the RA's and Riffe's I can see the benefits of continous support for the shaft. Something other Euro guns lack.

So Rigdvr if you want a nice reef gun try a 100 or 110 RA. Great accuracy and enough punch to put down 10-15 kg fish.

 

[stu newton]

hey guys, R.A. does make a nice gun,its true .i just feel that if you can you should have (insert gun of choice)in a couple diff. lengths for consistency. i,ve got to say i,m not a real deadeye and swapping around brands(JBL75,mares cyrano100,riffe180,ex.)isn,t going to help.

 

[Iyadiver]

I think Jay Styron is right, his hunting ground more or less should be like Rig's, his advice seems most appropriate. Rig should get a short gun like Jay say, maybe 90cm. He already has a Miller and a Riffe to fill in other hunting needs.


Stu,
Consistency is not about length, it is about available power being used and ratio to a gun's shaft weight and the mass of the gun and due to recoil. A short gun of 80-90 cm to be effective and accurate at 2 meters is easy, if u want to make it effective and accurate at 5 meters it is a challenge. There is nothing much to mod on a Euro, x 2 bands is about max. Probably 6.35mm to 7mm shaft is next step. This is good for the gun, you can't mod it very much away from its intended design, hence comes the consistency.

Then.. :mute :mute :mute Wha ha ha ha
Peace peace...don't open up the can of worms please. Just models to offer for our Captain Rig and tell him what to look in his Euro which u think is a good feature.

 

[Wishbone]

IYA is right,

Here's what I think you should look for in a Euro-gun:

1. Handle - comfort + strong trigger mechanism:

Strong trigger mechanism. Ever since the 80's when Sporasup produced the best trigger mechanisms I've only seen one good solution - the OMER frictionless release trigger. For the Beuchat fans - the platic cover over the trigger and the shaft bed of the Arka (and the others in the category) is awful and bends when you use stronger bands...

2. Tube - go for carbon if you can afford it and you're going to get a long gun. For the 75cm versions - it doesn't really matter.

3. Muzzle - the longer the muzzle is - the better. It provides better guidance for the shaft. Note that the OMER muzzles have great design, but the plastic is rather soft. But it's also very cheap, so no problems there.

3. Shaft - they're more or less the same nowadays. But I've noticed that the OMER shafts are thinned to form a bed for the.... okay, dunno the word here.... the thing that prevents the fish from getting away - I'd call it "the hook". On one hand - it provides for better penetration and hydrodynamics, but on the other - this is the weak spot of the shaft, so don't shoot rocks with it!

4. Bands - all the original bands are crap! You'd have to change those for sure. And change them for Imersion Megabooster - i've tried MANY Euro-bands and those are the best for sure... Never buy thick Beuchat bands...

5. Line - You can go for a kevlar line - very thin and you won't have the problem with untying knots after shooting. But the disadvantage is that the thin strong line may cut the fish. And the kevlar is not very durable. So you may use any mono fishing line of appropriate thikness...

I think that's it in brief. Now I hear Imersion has a great new line of guns, so if anyone can provide more info, it would be of help.

IB

 

[Abriapnea]

Hi Rig , guess I'll take my stand with shadowkiller on railguns . I find that they are superb for accuracy , get an amazing percentage of stoneing shots . My smallest is a 110 , when messing in caves you can "choke" the rubbers to prevent dinging the spear . With the standard 20 mm. bands and the reach it gives plus the accuracy IMHO virtually any fish you are likely to encounter is doable .
I prefer dyneema wishbones and shooting line .

 

[andrsn]

Originally posted by Iyadiver

Consistency is not about length, it is about available power being used and ratio to a gun's shaft weight and the mass of the gun and due to recoil.

iya, consistency is always bringing back a medley of fishies. remember, beauty is in the eye of the gun-holder.

warmly,
andrsn

 

[icarus pacific]

Stylin' Jay Styron nailed the question, much as I do with my Riffes':t Seriously, you can do a lot worse than an OMER 110 set up. You could be stuck with an RA that breaks under it's own power :head ...
If I had to do it over again, I'd take a long look at the Competitor line of Riffes' but after all is said and done, a hybrid pipe gun ala Wong or Yakooji sounds like the ticket.


sven

 

[Wishbone]

Originally posted by Abriapnea
I prefer dyneema wishbones and shooting line .

Alright, my turn...

What is "dyneema"!?

Thanks,

Ivan

 

[ickledevil]

Hi all,
I shoot almost exclusively with a picasso 75cm carbon. 22m band 6.5mm shaft. I use a triple wrap of mono and a reel, but am yet to have a fish take more than a few metres of line. For the conditions here its excellent on reefs in holes and in amongst the kelp. I wouldnt change it at all its accurate and holds its power past 3 metres the only time I havnt used it is when the vis is unusually good (then I take a 110) or the time I went in search of britains record conger when I took an Omer gauss gun..... hehehe.
Just my two cents.
Joe