exhalation on the ascend?

[tuboludo]

You're still hyperventilating tuboludo. Not as much as some people, but not a fantastic approach either. Breathing technique is certainly not something you've "perfected." I'd suggest ditching those last three deep breaths. If you're determined to dive alone, you'll need to be fanatical about safety.

You are suggesting ONE BREATH ONLY???

 

[trux]

Yes, he does. 3 deep breaths are equivalent to ~15 liters at an average person. Normal breathing rate at rest (meaning no hyperventilation) is typically 6 liters/minute (12 breaths of 0.5 l). So by replacing 15 liters you in fact perform ventilation worth of 2 minutes and 30 seconds of normal breathing. It means that during the 2'30" you would have to hold your breath to avoid being hyperventilated, but that would be very stupid way of doing because the hypoxia would raise and you would not recover fast enough with those 3 breaths.

 

[tuboludo]

If you're determined to dive alone, you'll need to be fanatical about safety.

When I was a kid (from the age of 12) and member of the local diving club in ”Viborg – Denmark” the Scuba Divers would ALWAYS leave me somewhere ALONE (dumping me of the diving boat) and return hours later when they completed their compress air diving, and so the seed was planted… I was always diving along since I was out there with a snorkel not being old enough to go diving with compress air!

I started diving at the age of 8 and could not join the club before the age of 12 (their rules in those days) and therefore I have always been used to dive alone (I am 46 today) ….. so I do consider myself having some experience diving alone…..

Yes, I would like to be as save as possible (otherwise not all these questions, questions that was never in my mind for most of my life), but I am also clarified with the risk of diving alone…

My greatest fear used to be being caught in some fishing nets on the bottom of the ocean or being hit by a boat on the surface of the ocean, but since I join this forum it has all been about shallow water blackout (which I have never experienced….)…. But time and time again I just think to myself, to hell with it, I’ve been diving like this all my live and should the blackout ever come, then……. Big Black Nothing forever…. What to do about it……. You live and then you die…..

 

[Mullins]

Yes, one breath only but it's ok to do it in lower case too.

You've shown you don't have much of a clue about this stuff, and you're talking to people with vastly more knowledge of the sport. Take it or leave it I guess.

 

[tuboludo]

Are you guys only taking one breath before you dive?

 

[Mullins]

You need to consider the breathing pattern for minutes preceding the dive, not just the last couple of breaths. If you're consciously controlling your breathing (e.g. 'deep and slow') then you're already hyperventilating somewhat and adding big forced breaths at the end is just going to make you more hypocapnic. Generally considered a good idea to stick to a slow breathing pattern right through until you take your final breath.

 

[Azrael3000]

Have a look at this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-training-techniques/53900-static-no-warm-up.html
this should give you some valuable advice on breathing before a dive.

 

[tuboludo]

You need to consider the breathing pattern for minutes preceding the dive, not just the last couple of breaths. If you're consciously controlling your breathing (e.g. 'deep and slow') then you're already hyperventilating somewhat and adding big forced breaths at the end is just going to make you more hypocapnic. Generally considered a good idea to stick to a slow breathing pattern right through until you take your final breath.

Maybe there is some misunderstanding here. When I mentioned that I only take three big breaths before I dive, I meant that I take THREE SLOW LONG DEEP CONTROLLED BREATHS!!!!!! (well, of course)…… :inlove

Even as a teenager I always were breathing slowly and when I was attending free diving classes some years ago I learned several techniques to do slow breathing ….. for minutes and minutes…….however, I never do more than THREE, since that is what I have been used to since my teenage years!

 

[tuboludo]

Have a look at this thread: http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-training-techniques/53900-static-no-warm-up.html
this should give you some valuable advice on breathing before a dive.

Thanks for the link. Interesting reading. I do my warm ups in the ocean. On my (slow) swim out to the deep areas where I free dive, I make a few short dives at 2 – 5 meters, and then at 5 – 8 meters.

Just short relaxed dives well within my limits. I use the swim out to check how the little fishes are doing on the given day, so I will know if I shall spend time later (after my free diving) to catch some supper/dinner for myself or my friends.

When I get to the deep end where I am going to do long lasting dives, I just lie in the water and relax for 10 to 15 minutes before I start any serious free diving.

And so the story goes….. :friday

 

[trux]

Maybe there is some misunderstanding here. When I mentioned that I only take three big breaths before I dive, I meant that I take THREE SLOW LONG DEEP CONTROLLED BREATHS!!!!!!

I think you did not see my previous post (#42) above, because you have posted just in the same time again. I wrote:

3 deep breaths are equivalent to ~15 liters at an average person. Normal breathing rate at rest (meaning no hyperventilation) is typically 6 liters/minute (12 breaths of 0.5 l). So by replacing 15 liters you in fact perform ventilation worth of 2 minutes and 30 seconds of normal breathing. It means that during the 2'30" you would have to hold your breath to avoid being hyperventilated, but that would be very stupid way of doing because the hypoxia would raise and you would not recover fast enough with those 3 breaths.

So to repeat - if these three long deep breaths are done within 2'30" with no other inhales involved, it would be about OK to prevent the hyperventilation, but in that case I would put in question the purpose of the breaths. And it would also assume that prior these last breaths, once you recovered from the previous dive, you breathe completely normally, with no increased frequency or amplitude. If it is not the case (which would not be uncommon), the hyperventilation is even bigger.

 

[cdavis]

tubo,

Your three breaths are, by definition, hyperventilation. We call them purge breaths, designed to lower the c02 level in the blood and provide a more comfortable dive. However, its not as safe as not hyperventilating at all and you can adapt to not using them.

Purge breaths can be reasonably safe or dangerous as heck, depending on how you use them. Preceed them with a very low breathing rate that does not lower c02 levels and limit to 3 or less, preferably less than full breaths and they are reasonably safe for most people. Preceed them with a breathing rate that substantially lowers c02 (like several minutes of long deep and slow) and you can reduce c02 levels way too much, to the point that it feels great, but quickly becomes dangerous. The tricky thing is where to draw the line. Nearly all divers overbreath and have no idea they are doing it. Individual physiology plays a considerable role. Dangerous for some not others and you can't tell who is who. Very easy to do too much, hence the advice to not do them at all.

Connor

 

[tuboludo]

So I should lie in the water, totally relaxed breathing at a normal slow rated, and just before I want to dive, I take one big breath and then I dive???!!!

Is that how you guys do it?

Won’t that be a “short” dive?

 

[cdavis]

Might be, if you were not adapted to it. The best advice I've seen on breathup is to forget about your breathing, let your body take care of it. IMHO you can follow that with a small number of purge breaths, but you don't have to and it is less safe. That works for most people, but you have to find what works for you.

What I do is a little different. I spent so many years breathing deep and slow that my subconscious will breath deep and slow in the water if I don't think about it. I consciously breath very shallow, right on the edge of feeling the need to breath. . Breathing gets slower and shallower(less than a 5th of a lungful) as I get near ready, then a couple of diaphragm only purge breaths and go. Works for me, might not for you.

I went to FRC (half lung) diving a few years ago and finally took the advice of better divers and stopped overbreathing. Takes a while, but you get used to the different c02 level and pretty soon your dive times are back up. That, combined with a better dive response from less inhale and more c02 and my dive times are much longer than they used to be.

Connor

 

[tuboludo]

Might be, if you were not adapted to it. The best advice I've seen on breathup is to forget about your breathing, let your body take care of it. IMHO you can follow that with a small number of purge breaths, but you don't have to and it is less safe. That works for most people, but you have to find what works for you.

What I do is a little different. I spent so many years breathing deep and slow that my subconscious will breath deep and slow in the water if I don't think about it. I consciously breath very shallow, right on the edge of feeling the need to breath. . Breathing gets slower and shallower(less than a 5th of a lungful) as I get near ready, then a couple of diaphragm only purge breaths and go. Works for me, might not for you.

I went to FRC (half lung) diving a few years ago and finally took the advice of better divers and stopped overbreathing. Takes a while, but you get used to the different c02 level and pretty soon your dive times are back up. That, combined with a better dive response from less inhale and more c02 and my dive times are much longer than they used to be.

Connor

This sounds very, very interesting indeed! I have seen free divers (mostly on YouTube) who are over-breathing like there is no tomorrow, and that has always made me think that what I am doing is bare nothing next to what those guys are doing. That I am doing it in a sensible way and not going crazy in my over-breathing.

But I will give it a good chance. I will try to see how I respond diving the way you just described it to me and let’s see where that gets me!

PS, does that mean that you don’t fill up your lungs 100% with air before diving? You won’t get problems with the lungs collapsing on a very deep dive?

 

[tuboludo]

Individual physiology plays a considerable role. Dangerous for some not others and you can't tell who

This also sounds very logical. I once had a near drowning experience because I got caught up in an anchor rope and it was to dark for me to figure out how to get the anchor of my leg (and I had no knife with me). I was eventually forced to pull myself up by the rope
with the anchor strapped to my leg from the depths of 12 meters.

The diver who were sitting in the diving boat could feel that something "funny" was going on and I remember his smiling face just before I broke the surface and how is expression turned into fear has he dragged me up into the boat (he was a grown up man - I was 14 at the time).

During my long fight back up the surface many things happened, one of them was that I at the end completely emptied my lungs and that gave me the feeling of extra oxygen as I describe earlier in this post.

Once I was lying in the diving boat breathing again the world was spinning for a good 15 – 20 minutes, but I never fainted or had a black out at any point!

 

[cdavis]

"PS, does that mean that you don’t fill up your lungs 100% with air before diving? You won’t get problems with the lungs collapsing on a very deep dive?"

Yes it does and it also reduces the depth at which you can no longer equalize and increases the danger of squeeze. Again, practice improves depth ability and some divers can dive very deep with the technique. Like a lot of things in diving it has both substantial advantages and substantial disadvantages.

If you are interested in half lung diving aka FRC, exhale, etc. Do a bunch of research before you try it. Use the search function and lots will come up. A good place to start is:

http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver.html

 

[tuboludo]

Okay, I read some of the stuff in the link and it sounds interesting. So by trying to dive like this, or just going on one breath without packing, there should be less chances of getting a blackout?

I wonder if dolphins and whales fill up their lungs 100% or not?!

 

[cdavis]

less chance of BO-- Yes, but that assumes good technique.

Virtually all marine mammals exhale before they dive.

 

[Mullins]

Saying FRC = less chance of BO is a bit speculative. Especially when it reduces your overall dive time / depth. I've seen several BOs on exhale dives and I think that protective aspect is highly dependent on technique. Get it wrong (overbreathe, kick on the descent) and it becomes quite a dangerous style of diving. Definitely not for somebody like Tuboludo with no tuition, no buddy and some.... questionable ideas about physiology etc.

Tuboludo - no, exhaling on that dive didn't give you any more oxygen or any more time. But yes, diving without a heavy breathup does reduce your chance of blackout. Packing is a different story. Gives you slightly more time but also makes a dive feel slightly harder. I wouldn't worry about it if I was you.

 

[cdavis]

Mullins is right that FRC style diving is technique sensitive. Its a great way to dive, but anybody who wants to try it should study carefully before jumping in, and have a well trained buddy.

Connor