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Extreme Dolfinism G2

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
cdavis said:
Now you are talking things I'm interested in. Beating around on the reef for hours is my thing, not max dives or competition. My x18 (prototype for the x20) works great and I don't think it will ever wear out, but would the Orca2 be better?...
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It is better by any performance based measure you look at. Plus, it floats, looks good and it is comfortable. The X is a good monofin and has a lot going for it, but if I was on your boat with both an X-20 and an Orca2, I would personally be inclined to grab the Orca2 when getting in the water to go for a swim. Why? Because performance is fun! And, I like to get in the water and have as much fun as possible, so the more the better.

cdavis said:
...Enough to justify the purchase price?....
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The answer to that depends on the individual. I'm hoping that in many cases, the Orca2 will have enough advantages, the additional cost of the monofin will be worth it. But, performance is not everything to everyone, and a lot of people just want something that is comfortable, looks good, and that works pretty well without spending too much money. For those customers, the same foil system that powers the Orca2, can be used with shoes instead of streamlining for nearly half the cost of the Orca2 (X-20s presently on sale for $650).
 
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There is an obvious solution to my dilemma. Check your PMs, Ron.
 
This video has already been seen for its entertainment value. But, there is some interesting analysis embedded within the entertainment if you look at it from the perspective of overall swimming performance.

Mandy and I did very similar dives in this video. I went all the way to the sand and Mandy stopped just short of the sand, but from where I cleared the bottom and took my first full fin stroke, we were probably at about the same depth, just a few feet off the bottom at 30m.

  • Ron with the Orca Mk-2 made the ascent in 27.0 seconds with 19 low amplitude fin strokes

  • Mandy with the Molchanov hyperfin made the ascent in 30 seconds and 19 large amplitude fin strokes

In this case, the Orca2 is about 10% faster using smaller and probably lower energy fin strokes to achieve the additional speed.

There are many variables at play here, and we can debate the details, but I think the Orca2 is looking pretty good by comparison against a slightly older version of one of the worlds best hyperfins. It's looking like the Orca2 is going to be great for depth diving as well as dynamics.



 
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I should mention that Mandy and I were both weighted a little heavy to achieve better glide efficacy. As I recall, we were both carrying about 4 pounds more lead than we would have normally been carrying for normal recreational reef diving. So, we are both hauling that extra weight back to the surface on these dives.
 
In all honesty I think Ron was the better swimmer, being more streamlined, keeping his head in line etc. Still I'm stoked about peoples reports on the extreme low drag, aiding the glide, are correct.

I would love to test and compare one day, when I have the opportunity and means. My NR CWT has been broken recently, so all the more reason to get busy


Swimming and gliding/flying with your own foil must be an amazing feeling.
 
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Reactions: neurodoc

I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks Kars; and I agree with you. I don't think the Orca2 is a full 10% better than a Molchanov hyperfin. Neither did I think I even implied that. Like I said, "There are many variables at play here", and in "this case" it looks to be about 10% better overall.

A pure 10% performance advantage from a single piece of hardware would be huge in terms of competition performance. This 10% performance advantage is probably due, in large part, to the differences in the techniques being used in response to the conditions we were feeling.

This is my detailed analysis of the situation behind this video:

  • Mandy normally has a technique that is similar to Goran's, big kicks and long dwell times on the return stroke. This is not my preferred swimming style. I like Alexey's technique and try to adapt his to work with the hydrofoil. Anyway, with the extra weight we were both carrying, she probably felt she needed the extra thrust of more powerful than usual fin strokes, and in the video her ascending kicks looked fairly aggressive and forceful.

  • In contrast, the Orca2 has a larger fin (from a hydrodynamic perspective, not by geometric area). It will intrinsically be more efficient at producing thrust to lift dead weight from the depths. As a result, I was able to maintain the smaller fin strokes and still get plenty of thrust to lift the excess weight, and the more streamline technique that resulted from the smaller fin strokes made me faster on the ascent.

Again, I'm not claiming that the Orca2 is 10% better than a top model hyperfin. But, I think it shows the Orca2 is a potential contender for being at or near the top of the monofin hierarchy. Like I said, "I think the Orca2 is looking pretty good by comparison".
 
Reactions: Kars
Kars, the glide, I call it flying, is way cool. The fin has so little drag that its a bit tricky for me to maintain a vertical dive(not my strength), by when flying, it is just fabulous.

My x18 is definitely faster and more powerful with small amplitude kicks.
 
This is a second impression video review Eric Fattah did on the Orca2. He swam with the prototype for about 2 hours back in July when I was in Vancouver. I had offered to temporarily exchange his Orca1 for the Orca2, and do a refurbish on his Orca1 to make it new again in exchange for his review of the Orca2. But, he declined and decided he just wanted to buy an Orca2 instead. I guess he figured he would not use the Orca1 anymore if the Orca2 was available. As I understand it, this is video from his first diving session with his new Orca2 that he had just received earlier this month.

 
Reactions: baiyoke
Ron, can you comment on the learning curve and the difficulty swimming with the Orca1-2 and the hyperfin?

I think Eric Fattah's review is strait to the point, pointing out the numerous substantial improvements over the previous top model 1. A very nice endorsement.
 

I'm probably not the best person to be commenting on the learning curve. It would be better to have someone comment on this who has gone through this learning curve more recently than me. The Orca2 has better and more connected feeling footstraps than did the Orca1. I would think this will make the Orca2 a bit easier to get comfortable with than the Orca1. Compared to a hyperfin, I supose it all depends on where you are starting from.

One big plus, for those who have never monofined before, I don't think a nube could accidentally try to scissor kick and break anything on an Orca, whereas hyperfin blades can be easily cracked between the foot-pockets from that kind of misuse. Roll balance may take a little more practice with the Orcas, but I think they are more forgiving of deficiencies in monofin core undulation technique. So, the things that are usually easy may take a little more practice, but the things that many divers struggle with may be easier and more forgiving. Does that make it a more balanced learning curve???

For an experienced monofin diver who is transitioning to an Orca, I'd think they would be able to get comfortable with the new hardware pretty quickly. After a few hours in the water, especially if it is spread over a couple days so you get to sleep on what your body has learned, I'd think it would be all smiles after that.
 
I can contribute a little bit here, as a bifin diver who had spent a good deal of time trying and using different monos, looking for a solution to what I wanted.

The Dol-fin foil system is MUCH easier to get good performance out of immediately than any normal mono that I tried, including the monoflap. There is also a long learning curve where performance and general comfort with the fin keeps getting better. Eric commented on this and I(from a very much less skillful place) found the same. Ron referred to roll balance. If found no issues here. The fin is far more maneuverable and controllable than a traditional mono. It comes at least reasonably close to being capable of the fine adjustments that bifins are capable of, noticeably better than normal monos.

Before I started using a neck weight and added flotation to my fin, vertical descents were difficult. The fin has so little drag that it wants to fall faster than the rest of me. One issue I had was applying power more with one leg than the other. I suspect that many mono useres will find the same issue. My legs are different length, which makes this aspect much more of an issue, It makes me stroke cockeyed. Very inefficient. I had a modest amount of problem, but only when trying to go fast. Practice pretty much eliminates the issue, but it took a while. I suspect it might be slightly more of a problem with the single point suspension of the Orca.
 
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Wjohnson100 has the same issue with different length legs. The X fins can accommodate for this by moving one shoe fore or aft relative the other to compensate for the asymmetry. Did you do this with your fin, or did you compensate with technique?
 
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technique, if you could call it that. It still feels funny sometimes, but the fin stays straight.
 
You may want to experiment with moving the shoes. It could make the fin feel better if you don't have to compensate via changing your natural posture.
 
This is an Orca1, but it's a great photo. Next time, he'll be in the Orca2. From this angle, the two fins look pretty similar.

 
Reactions: Apneaddict
Taking another stab at making a monofin for leg amputee divers.

 
Reactions: noa
Ron,

Eric indicates that the Orca2 is more powerful than the 1. Where does this come from? Just better streamlining? Is the blade farther back from the toes? different blade? Something else?

I notice that Eric often uses pretty extreme ankle movements, to the point that the feet are briefly perpendicular to the body. Looks inefficient and I know from experience that it takes a lot of ankle strengthening. He makes it work. Why?
 
Likely to speed up the flow over the foil and increase lift-based propulsion.
 

The better foot straps allow for a longer lever to the fin. The Orca2 is a couple inches longer than the Orca1. This combined with better streamlining is where the extra performance is coming from.

As for the ankle movement, that is a choice. The streamlining is good enough that there is relatively little drag from the angles of the fin body in the short transient (it is not at those large angles for very long) but it allows for a calf stomping like action of the ankle that feels a lot like jumping off the floor of a pool. I don't normally use that much ankle movement, but it actually works surprisingly well with the Orca.
 
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