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Extreme Dolfinism G2
- Thread starterREVAN
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
FYI: I'm building more Orca2 monofins. If any DB followers are considering getting an Orca2, this is a good time to jump in. I'm making a few special units with gold anodized sub-frame parts inside the fairing. This is a limited production run and availability. I'll post pictures when I have it ready, but it should look really good with the gold coloring. If it will be an international order, ask me about the DOL-Fin Insider Track Club for additional savings.
BTW Everyone - Full-on review of the Orca by Eric Fattah and I is in the works - to be published here.
This has been in the works for quite some time. At this point, I'm thinking it must be the most thorough monofin review in history. I'm looking forward to finally reading it.
Coming in late to the game here, but for what it's worth, I'll chime in with my two-cents.
I'd seen monofins of various kinds starting sometime in the late 90s. However, they were always just pictures in a magazine; static. I saw them with a mix of intrigue and skepticism. It wasn't until Youtube came along that I could actually see them in action. By that time, people were using them more and more in freediving and they were becoming more mainstream. After watching a number of videos and reading the stats in them over the period of a few years, I grew interested enough to decided that I wanted one, if for no other reason than to change up my water routine and offer a different swimming approach.
I've haven't been diving since July last year so I'm terribly out shape for it, but will start training again on Monday (my dive/training season is basically just March-early July. . . I take a few dive trips to the tropics during that time and work towards getting in shape for it. After the final trip, I quit training for the remainder of the year to work on other things). I'm hoping to get the X-22 back out to the pool this week. It's been 7 months since I've had fins on my feet and I've got a lot of work to do to regain lost ground for monofin-swimming; something I never got even moderately passable at last year before I put things away. I'm definitely getting excited to get back to the pool!
I think that fin rocks! I was sorry to see it go, but since I've driven myself nearly insane testing the Orca, it's probably for the best.
FYI - workout-wise - I did a lot of surface swimming this past winter - with a snorkel. It can be surprisingly helpful with technique and you can do it longer than apnea laps.
I think that fin rocks! I was sorry to see it go, but since I've driven myself nearly insane testing the Orca, it's probably for the best.
Thanks for the advice Fondueset. I'll have to give that a try. I'm not holding my breath though (no pun. . .well, actually, pun intended), but I think my form will most likely be terrible enough to preclude surface swimming for a little while. If I recall, getting the body to undulate seems to be much more difficult near the surface than deeper as any miscalculation that causes the fin to break the surface throws everything out of whack. Of course, perhaps that would make me learn faster (much like practicing with wood nunchucks makes one learn from mistakes much faster than foam ones)
FYI - nunchakus are fantastic for hitting rocks out over the lakeThanks for the advice Fondueset. I'll have to give that a try. I'm not holding my breath though (no pun. . .well, actually, pun intended), but I think my form will most likely be terrible enough to preclude surface swimming for a little while. If I recall, getting the body to undulate seems to be much more difficult near the surface than deeper as any miscalculation that causes the fin to break the surface throws everything out of whack. Of course, perhaps that would make me learn faster (much like practicing with wood nunchucks makes one learn from mistakes much faster than foam ones)
I can't seem to find a decent pair that'll hold up just for general practice, much less hitting rocks into the lake! Of course, I haven't looked too hard anyway as I pretty much hate the things.
I wouldn't push for this comparison between your fin and the fins mentioned if I was you as I think it's an unfair comparison to your fin as it doesn't take into account the lesser energy expenditure per stroke of your fin compared to the fins mentioned, this probably wouldn't be factored in by most people .
Initial review of DOL-FIN Pilot2
I have had the Pilot-2 now for a couple of weeks and here are a few pictures from the unpacking and assembly:
Frame and foil
Assembled
Shoe mounting
Please note: when I first assembled the fin (see above) I got my tops and bottoms mixed-up and ended up with the fin upside down. As Ron points out in the instructions (I downloaded and used the ORCA-2 instructions) you need to ensure the fin is installed correctly as the profile of the hydrofoil is not symmetrical.
My first impressions upon unpacking were of a well engineered product, nicely finished, especially the black and gold anodising. Assembly was straight forward but with regard to the above comment you need to double check orientation of the fin, I know it sounds silly to point this out but ‘up’ for the fin is when it’s attached to you and the shoes are facing down towards the bottom of the pool/lake/sea/ocean…! Attaching the fin requires four bolts to be inserted through the rubber suspension strap to hold the fin in place. You’ll need a Phillips screwdriver and a 4mm Allen Key to assemble the fin and shoes respectively.
My Pilot-2 is a prototype of the Pilot design that accepts Look System (3 bolt) cycling shoes and I’m using Bont Riot road shoes, which have a very stiff Carbon Fibre / Epoxy sole. I purchased them separately. More about the shoes later. The shoes are held in place with only the rear two bolts and the arch area is supported by the fin’s frame at the back and by an adjustable plate under the toe area. I think this design gives much better support to the shoe and should help reduce stressing of the shoe.
I like the idea of the folding fin tips, very quick and simple, like a naval aircraft ready for storage below deck, and this makes transport much easier. With the fin tips inserted it’s a very purposeful looking piece of equipment.
Swimming with the Pilot-2
I have had two sessions with the fin. Declarations: my monofin technique is not the greatest I must admit, to which my coach will testify, and I’ve only ever used a conventional monofin once, about six years ago so I’m not an experienced monofin user. I’ve been using rubber training fins since then. That said, now that this product exists, there will be people buying them who, like me, are swayed by the design, robustness, transportability and cycling shoe interface to go for the DOL-Fin in preference to a traditional monofin. So my review could be regarded in absolute terms rather than relative to an previous experience, save that of my rubber training fins.
My first session in the pool left me feeling that I had some work to do on my technique, and that’s fine because my technique is poor and I think it is a good thing that the fin is not too forgiving of poor technique. As the instruction point out in the section on swimming with a DOL-Fin:
Yes, I did encounter the side-slip and fin twist on my first outing but I wasn’t discouraged because this is a new experience for me. Strangely enough I initially got my best results when surface swimming on my back. I think this may largely be due to the lower amplitude of my stroke which I think suits the DOL-Fin as you are encouraged not to over stroke it. First time around I was too tense in the legs. Don’t try and over control your knees by holding them together, it doesn’t help.
Having re-read the instructions, watched some videos off of the web and given it some thought my second outing was a different kettle of fish all together. I concentrated on getting my hip action working, ignoring the fact that the action should start at the shoulders as I can reintroduce that later, relaxing my legs and minimising any bending at the knee. This made an immediate difference and I had only a few twist during the one hour session. The twists can be ironed out by letting yourself glide for a bit but I’m starting to get a feel that the twist is originating at my hips so I’ve got some more work to do there.
Surface drills
I did a lot of surface swimming, face down, with a front snorkel and also on my back. I think the back swimming could be a good drill for training but remember to keep your arms out in front of you else you’ll get a hefty whack on the head as this fin sure does shift you! Front swimming with the front snorkel and a kick board is a good combination too. I didn't find finning at the surface to cause any problems.
Apnea
Swimming apnea with this fin is lovely. The power from the fin appears to come over a wide range of the stroke, no dead spots in the centre, just steady thrust and it feels smooth and propels you with almost effortless grace. I say 'almost' because it does require effort, that’s obvious, but it is not hard work to stroke this fin - it feels very efficient. The low drag means when you glide, you glide, you don’t feel drag if you haven’t pointed your toes. I think the way the fin is mounted and articulated is inspired. When you stop the stroke at the centre point the fin is perfectly aligned… minimal drag! I enjoy looking back at the fin in action. Wish I had an underwater camera.
What of ankle flicks. Yes, you can propel yourself quite happily with just using your ankles and combining them with the main dolphin kick makes for extra performance.
With regard to turns, that’s something I need to master but Ron has video examples for this too. Pushing off the wall with your feet is hard so a flat turn, pushing off with the hand is better then trying the rolling type that I’m used to.
Weighting and balance
I don't think I had enough weight on in my first session. I was using a 3lb (1.4Kg) neck weight. Second session I went up to 5lb (2.3Kg) and that felt a lot better. Weigh your fin/shoe combination and see what suits you.
Shoes
As mentioned above I have a pair of Bont Riot road shoes which I got one or so sizes bigger to accommodate using up to a 5mm fin sock for swimming in cold open water. I chose the ratchet closure over the velcro (triathlon version) but the jury is still out on whether that was the right choice. As for the Boa systems, I don’t know. The question with any of these mechanical closures is will you be able to get the shoe of easily with numb fingers? Upon reflection I’d say the best chance is with velcro. My shoes are designed to be a better anatomical fit, I have wide feet, and I find them very comfortable. That said I find them a problem on the pool floor as the heels are quite slippery. My advice would be to go with Ron’s choice of shoe as they have a wraparound rubber heel and finger hoops that would make the shoes easier to get on in the water (see his previous Pilot-2 video in this thread).
Conclusions
I think the hydrofoil concept, robust and modular construction, portability, cycling shoe interface and its overall simplicity make it a winner. It also performs very well too. A word on simplicity. I cannot imagine, given the concept, a more simplistic design. There’s only one moving part during swimming and with the rubber suspension strap joining the fin to the shoe plate there’s very little that can go wrong, no finely engineered machining tolerances required, and not much to wear out due to corrosion or friction.
On price, I think given the robust construction this fin should last and last and last... so it's worth it. On delivery, Ron did what he said, delivered what I asked for, in the time he said, and the USPS shipping worked just fine.
Put pure and simple, ‘I love this fin’.
Thanks Ron!
I have had the Pilot-2 now for a couple of weeks and here are a few pictures from the unpacking and assembly:
Frame and foil
Assembled
Shoe mounting
Please note: when I first assembled the fin (see above) I got my tops and bottoms mixed-up and ended up with the fin upside down. As Ron points out in the instructions (I downloaded and used the ORCA-2 instructions) you need to ensure the fin is installed correctly as the profile of the hydrofoil is not symmetrical.
My first impressions upon unpacking were of a well engineered product, nicely finished, especially the black and gold anodising. Assembly was straight forward but with regard to the above comment you need to double check orientation of the fin, I know it sounds silly to point this out but ‘up’ for the fin is when it’s attached to you and the shoes are facing down towards the bottom of the pool/lake/sea/ocean…! Attaching the fin requires four bolts to be inserted through the rubber suspension strap to hold the fin in place. You’ll need a Phillips screwdriver and a 4mm Allen Key to assemble the fin and shoes respectively.
My Pilot-2 is a prototype of the Pilot design that accepts Look System (3 bolt) cycling shoes and I’m using Bont Riot road shoes, which have a very stiff Carbon Fibre / Epoxy sole. I purchased them separately. More about the shoes later. The shoes are held in place with only the rear two bolts and the arch area is supported by the fin’s frame at the back and by an adjustable plate under the toe area. I think this design gives much better support to the shoe and should help reduce stressing of the shoe.
I like the idea of the folding fin tips, very quick and simple, like a naval aircraft ready for storage below deck, and this makes transport much easier. With the fin tips inserted it’s a very purposeful looking piece of equipment.
Swimming with the Pilot-2
I have had two sessions with the fin. Declarations: my monofin technique is not the greatest I must admit, to which my coach will testify, and I’ve only ever used a conventional monofin once, about six years ago so I’m not an experienced monofin user. I’ve been using rubber training fins since then. That said, now that this product exists, there will be people buying them who, like me, are swayed by the design, robustness, transportability and cycling shoe interface to go for the DOL-Fin in preference to a traditional monofin. So my review could be regarded in absolute terms rather than relative to an previous experience, save that of my rubber training fins.
My first session in the pool left me feeling that I had some work to do on my technique, and that’s fine because my technique is poor and I think it is a good thing that the fin is not too forgiving of poor technique. As the instruction point out in the section on swimming with a DOL-Fin:
also
Yes, I did encounter the side-slip and fin twist on my first outing but I wasn’t discouraged because this is a new experience for me. Strangely enough I initially got my best results when surface swimming on my back. I think this may largely be due to the lower amplitude of my stroke which I think suits the DOL-Fin as you are encouraged not to over stroke it. First time around I was too tense in the legs. Don’t try and over control your knees by holding them together, it doesn’t help.
Having re-read the instructions, watched some videos off of the web and given it some thought my second outing was a different kettle of fish all together. I concentrated on getting my hip action working, ignoring the fact that the action should start at the shoulders as I can reintroduce that later, relaxing my legs and minimising any bending at the knee. This made an immediate difference and I had only a few twist during the one hour session. The twists can be ironed out by letting yourself glide for a bit but I’m starting to get a feel that the twist is originating at my hips so I’ve got some more work to do there.
Surface drills
I did a lot of surface swimming, face down, with a front snorkel and also on my back. I think the back swimming could be a good drill for training but remember to keep your arms out in front of you else you’ll get a hefty whack on the head as this fin sure does shift you! Front swimming with the front snorkel and a kick board is a good combination too. I didn't find finning at the surface to cause any problems.
Apnea
Swimming apnea with this fin is lovely. The power from the fin appears to come over a wide range of the stroke, no dead spots in the centre, just steady thrust and it feels smooth and propels you with almost effortless grace. I say 'almost' because it does require effort, that’s obvious, but it is not hard work to stroke this fin - it feels very efficient. The low drag means when you glide, you glide, you don’t feel drag if you haven’t pointed your toes. I think the way the fin is mounted and articulated is inspired. When you stop the stroke at the centre point the fin is perfectly aligned… minimal drag! I enjoy looking back at the fin in action. Wish I had an underwater camera.
What of ankle flicks. Yes, you can propel yourself quite happily with just using your ankles and combining them with the main dolphin kick makes for extra performance.
With regard to turns, that’s something I need to master but Ron has video examples for this too. Pushing off the wall with your feet is hard so a flat turn, pushing off with the hand is better then trying the rolling type that I’m used to.
Weighting and balance
I don't think I had enough weight on in my first session. I was using a 3lb (1.4Kg) neck weight. Second session I went up to 5lb (2.3Kg) and that felt a lot better. Weigh your fin/shoe combination and see what suits you.
Shoes
As mentioned above I have a pair of Bont Riot road shoes which I got one or so sizes bigger to accommodate using up to a 5mm fin sock for swimming in cold open water. I chose the ratchet closure over the velcro (triathlon version) but the jury is still out on whether that was the right choice. As for the Boa systems, I don’t know. The question with any of these mechanical closures is will you be able to get the shoe of easily with numb fingers? Upon reflection I’d say the best chance is with velcro. My shoes are designed to be a better anatomical fit, I have wide feet, and I find them very comfortable. That said I find them a problem on the pool floor as the heels are quite slippery. My advice would be to go with Ron’s choice of shoe as they have a wraparound rubber heel and finger hoops that would make the shoes easier to get on in the water (see his previous Pilot-2 video in this thread).
Conclusions
I think the hydrofoil concept, robust and modular construction, portability, cycling shoe interface and its overall simplicity make it a winner. It also performs very well too. A word on simplicity. I cannot imagine, given the concept, a more simplistic design. There’s only one moving part during swimming and with the rubber suspension strap joining the fin to the shoe plate there’s very little that can go wrong, no finely engineered machining tolerances required, and not much to wear out due to corrosion or friction.
On price, I think given the robust construction this fin should last and last and last... so it's worth it. On delivery, Ron did what he said, delivered what I asked for, in the time he said, and the USPS shipping worked just fine.
Put pure and simple, ‘I love this fin’.
Thanks Ron!
Divebike - interesting observations. True - it is difficult to visually quantify effort. I would say these fins are not as fast 'out of the gate', but once under way it is as you've said - very low effort. However - acceleration - more than cruise - depends on the Blade size. Eric Fattah has been using his for depth - which requires good acceleration. His findings will be in the upcoming review.
Thank you so much, Philip, for taking the time to write and share this review with others here on DeeperBlue.
I've got a lot of different activities going on at the moment, so progress is not exactly speedy, but I have started working on the Owner's Manual for the Pilot monofins. The Pilot and Orca2 have a lot of similarities (especially in the fin/foil assembly), but it will be easier for Pilot customers when I have an actual DOL-Fin Pilot manual available.
For total clarity to readers, the pictures shown above were taken before the fin blade was flipped to its proper "up" orientation (not that those details can really be seen in the pictures without some inside information on how the logos were arranged on that particular fin blade).
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Fantastic review! I love hearing reviews from people like you that are beginner monofinners as well. Being a beginner myself, it really helps to hear that others are experiencing just about the same thing which means that I'm at least on the right track. I've still got a looooong way to go as currently, my bi-fins are still more efficient and faster than any attempt I've made with any monofin, but I believe that is pretty much due to poor technique on my part (though strangely I usually dolphinkick my monofins and I find it odd that I can move significantly faster and more efficiently dolphin-kicking those than an actual monofin). I'm definitely getting eager to get to the pool in the next day or two and get back into it, but I've got a feeling it's going to also be quite demoralizing ;-)
Phillip, nice review, thanks. Some good news for you.
While full body undulation is the best way to travel with a Dol-Fin, it requires considerable technique, practice and a flexible back. That was a serious challenge for me. Although undulation will probably be a challenge for you for a while, there is a stage where very efficient moderate speed is possible without the full undulation. Get your ankles going and add just a little hip flexure, knees pretty much straight, small amplitude kicks and you can move very efficiently at a bit over 1.1 m/s. It feels like very very little effort, almost none at speeds below .9 m/s. I use it a lot for reef cruising, even though practice is improving my undulation.
While full body undulation is the best way to travel with a Dol-Fin, it requires considerable technique, practice and a flexible back. That was a serious challenge for me. Although undulation will probably be a challenge for you for a while, there is a stage where very efficient moderate speed is possible without the full undulation. Get your ankles going and add just a little hip flexure, knees pretty much straight, small amplitude kicks and you can move very efficiently at a bit over 1.1 m/s. It feels like very very little effort, almost none at speeds below .9 m/s. I use it a lot for reef cruising, even though practice is improving my undulation.
You make a very good point. The distance per stroke is not the whole story. The amplitude and effort that goes into the stroke is obviously just as important (along with drag details like speedskin vs. wetsuit, or bathingsuit).
The dilemma is that we cannot directly see the effort (i.e. - energy or work) that goes into a fin stroke. The closest observable is the velocity and acceleration profile of the fin stroke. A smooth sinusoidal velocity profile will have a more efficient distribution of vorticity throughout the stroke cycle, but a profile with sharp impulses and abrupt velocity changes will generate stronger vortices and have more energy and total thrust embedded in its motion. But, without knowing the back pressure or resistance of the fin, the work being done by the swimmer is unknown.
So, the velocity profile cannot tell us the actual total effort. It can only indicate if a particular fin is being pushed to it's thrust limits or if it's just being used normally and within its smooth and most efficient operating range.
The amplitude of the fin stroke and distance traveled per stroke are related to the fin's thrust capability and the drag of the swimmer. The amplitude and velocity profile of the fin stroke are related to the effort that is being exerted. Though it is not the whole story on it's own, that information combined with a "this is easy and comfortable feeling fin", or a "this fin is a heavier load on the feet than expected" and it can start to paint a meaningful picture of what's going on.
Without the opportunity to actually use two different fins in a careful evaluation of side-by-side performance, looking at these indicators is often about the best we can do, and with enough pieces of information quite a bit of relevant performance can sometimes be deduced. If there are persistent differences in lap times and/or differences in stroke count, differences in the velocity profile of the kick stroke and descriptions of differences in the back pressure, these indicators can often be used to uncover a performance gap between two monofins, if that gap is large enough. If the two fins are close in performance, the relatively small performance gap will probably not be resolved by this method (at least not legitimately).
Short of purchasing a Specialfins or Nemo to be able to test side by side, I thought it worth looking at the visual evidence to see what can be learned. So far, my finding has been that there is a big difference, but that's based on the videos I've been able to find which don't show the Nemo being used with a reasonably good technique, and without that, the big difference has little meaning and is probably not worth noting. There is just too much uncertainty. By the time divers get good technique, I think they often move on to swimming with a hyperfin, so there is just not a lot of good video evidence on youtube to draw from that I've been able to find.