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Extreme Dolfinism G2

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Matt Taylor

Member
Dec 27, 2015
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Hi


I think these new hydrofoil monofons are a very exciting development, and I'm definitely considering a purchase. I was wondering what the difference is between the Orca and the x-20. Are they designed with a different emphasis? (e.g. high top speed vs. efficiency at low power?), or is one considered better? Related to this, I noticed on the dol-fin site the x-20 has a larger maximum blade size than the orca, why is this? I'm a big strong guy, so I think I'd want a large blade.

Also, is the large foot version of the Orca available yet?

Thanks a lot for any info

Matt Taylor
 

derelictp

Freediver
Oct 16, 2001
397
63
118
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Hi


I think these new hydrofoil monofons are a very exciting development, and I'm definitely considering a purchase. I was wondering what the difference is between the Orca and the x-20. Are they designed with a different emphasis? (e.g. high top speed vs. efficiency at low power?), or is one considered better? Related to this, I noticed on the dol-fin site the x-20 has a larger maximum blade size than the orca, why is this? I'm a big strong guy, so I think I'd want a large blade.

Also, is the large foot version of the Orca available yet?

Thanks a lot for any info

Matt Taylor
The Orca is a "safe" choice if you want a fin with low [oxygencumsumption/m] in my opinion!
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
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I was wondering what the difference is between the Orca and the x-20. Are they designed with a different emphasis? (e.g. high top speed vs. efficiency at low power?), or is one considered better?

The X-20 and Pilot fins don't have the streamlining like the Orca. They are designed for recreational diving, where the Orca is designed for maximum efficiency and for competition diving. The streamlining is the main functional difference. All these fins are comfortable and good for recreational diving. It comes down to how much you want to spend on maximizing your swimming efficiency. If you will be measuring the meters of your dives (i.e. - competition diving), you may want the streamlining of the Orca.

Related to this, I noticed on the dol-fin site the x-20 has a larger maximum blade size than the orca, why is this?
It's mainly due to different uses. The unstreamlined fins have more drag and are more likely to be used with spearguns, or large cameras, etc... in a recreational diving capacity. Higher drag will lean toward larger fin blades. Any of these fins can hold a larger blade. Above 35 inches (47 with tips extended), the shipping becomes an issue and I have yet to see a situation that would demand anything larger. I've found that a 30 inch foil is a good size in most applications offering a good combination of capabilities and travel convenience. Most people will not need larger than this, but if you dive in a 7mm wetsuit and are carrying a 2 meter long spear gun, you may want something bigger.

So you know, I only have one X-20 left here and it has a medium fin blade (25 inch foil). You can always order a second fin blade of whatever size you want, but it will come with a medium blade for the discounted clearance price. When this one is gone, it will be all Pilot fins for the recreational products.
 

Matt Taylor

Member
Dec 27, 2015
4
1
13
48
Any of these fins can hold a larger blade. Above 35 inches (47 with tips extended), the shipping becomes an issue and I have yet to see a situation that would demand anything larger. I've found that a 30 inch foil is a good size in most applications offering a good combination of capabilities and travel convenience. Most people will not need larger than this, but if you dive in a 7mm wetsuit and are carrying a 2 meter long spear gun, you may want something bigger.

Hi REVAN

Thanks a lot for replying. I'm interested in being able to swim fast, as well as doing more leisurely diving (hence my interest in the large blades). I imagine that a hydrofoil based fin would provide a lot of power or finswimming / speed type activities. Has anyone tried using your fins in this way, and how do they perform?

My feet are UK size 12 / EU 48. I suppose that would demand the "large" version of the orca. Is it in production yet?

Thanks again for the info.

Matt
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
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My feet are UK size 12 / EU 48. I suppose that would demand the "large" version of the orca. Is it in production yet?
Not yet. I was planning to do the Large and Small Orcas together, but it was an idea that proved to be less practical then anticipated. I'm doing the Small now. I have the design for the Large pretty much worked out (I did the design work for the 2 sizes together), but I don't anticipate getting to the mold making for the Large until the Fall, which should get first units out in late winter or spring of next year.
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
118
A picture from Germany, I am told...

bonus.jpg
 
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REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
118
Hello everyone,

Sorry for the long silence. The fact is that the small size Orca2 progress has not been going as expected. I finished the molds for the small size Orca2 over 4 months ago. They have been at the vendor for plastic forming since then.

Creative Plastics (the shop I've been using for the past 2 .5 years) was recently sold to Port Plastics. Port Plastics did not complete the order I had placed with Creative Plastics. They didn't tell me they were not going to complete the order either, or even inform me that there was a change of owners. Creative Plastics has always been extremely slow, and I've learned to plan ahead and to prepare to be patient, as they usually take 6 to 8 weeks to complete an order. When I checked up on the order after the usual slow processing time, I found out about the change of ownership and that they lost the order and had not been working on it. I replaced the order with Port Plastics and they said they would get right on it. A few more weeks and I checked up on it again. They said that the person who took the order was out of town and they would get back with me. They did not. I checked back again, and they said that they would need to rebid the job (which means that they were still not working on it and that prices are going to go up). Several calls and as many weeks later, they still had not put together a new bid for the job.

Port Plastics has been a black hole with information going in, but nothing coming back out. The bottom line is that they wasted 4 months with this BS, and I have nothing to show for it. I recently retrieved the molds from them and am now starting over with trying to figuring out how I'm going to get the fairings formed from the molds I've made. They were the only shop in town that did this type of work. I now need to decide if I'm going to get new equipment and start doing this work myself (a long and laborious prospect, but with the best future product control), or to find someone out of town to do this and potentially have these types of issues again.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm complaining (which, technically, I am), but I thought I should update folks as to why this is taking so long and why I've had no updates in such a long time. Sometimes, it is way harder to make progress than anticipated.
 
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Kars

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2003
3,445
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Thanks for the update Ron. How can these companies in this time afford such a sloppy job? You know with all the social media etc you would expect their reputation to tank quickly. If there is enough work in the plastics branch, you may start to consider becoming a competitor to them. I'm sure you can offer clients at least much better communication. With you there are likely more pissed off clients - It may be a business opportunity..
 

cdavis

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,003
777
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Well, one does not expect to see oneself , or ones boat, in an online newspaper from half way around the world. Very fun.

Somebody figured out how to get the two videos, surface and depth, to line up perfectly. I had not seen that before.

Thanks Ron.
 

Stephan Whelan

Papa Smurf
Staff member
Admin
Jan 7, 1999
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Awesome news Ron (and Connor)! Great to see the product on a major online media website.

(PS - Sadly I can't bring myself to call the daily "fail" a newspaper. It may be read by the middle class masses but it ranks around the same as the national enquirer in the US as far as journalistic integrity)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Jackin

Active Member
Jul 12, 2013
24
5
43
Update on testing 34" blade:

Several sessions testing DYN performance at the 2 different suspension settings vs the 30" blade leads to the conlusion that

-At the hard setting the 34" blade is approx 5-10% less effective than the 30" blade at soft suspension. There is no doubt for me that I prefer the 30" blade with soft suspension.

-At the soft setting the 34" blade I had 4 of my easiest 100m DYN ever ( did 100m laps). It was in a 50m pool though and most of my DYN is done in 25m pool. The 34" blade favours slower strokes than 30". My laps where at relaxed pace and timed to 1:33, 1:30, 1:29, 1:31. I belive I'm slightly faster with the 34" blade at soft setting vs 30"/soft setting.

In DYN, it's not obvious which configuration is the most effective but the 34" with soft suspension is at least as efficient. I belive it's slightly more effective after proving I can go 100m laps without getting in the hypoxic struggle. Normal for me with 30" blade is the 85-90 range with the same feeling (25m pool).

My earlier statement that I need a stiffer suspension is wrong for DYN. In CWT and high speed DYN I will (to get the optimum) probably need something between soft and hard setting. From now I will use the soft setting.

Hi, I need help to fine-tune my Orca for next competition in DYN. Beginner.
What do you mean "soft setup" ? Longer suspension or suspension with pushed stoppers ? Any picture will be nice. I am trying to understand the whole physics in practice.
My setup in pictures:
20161017_152448.jpg
20161017_152508.jpg
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
118
@Jackin - The soft setting will be with the delta-strakes in the forward position. So, of the 2 possible places for the screws to go through the '8" shaped hole in the strake, the screw will be through the aft hole, placing the strake more forward and making the suspension softer. This should be consistent with what @derelictp was saying.

I can't tell what setting you currently have, as the "8" shaped holes are covered by the gold colored washer plate.
 

Jackin

Active Member
Jul 12, 2013
24
5
43
Thanks Ron, i think I have deafult settings (foto) - it means soft, yes ? Only move whole susp.system more back (longer lever) for last months.
20161019_201042.jpg


Question - how it works WITHOUT any strake (for better understanding) ?
And I do not get one thing - why longer suspension makes fin more "hard". From something long and rubber I expected softer movements on longer lever - for slower and bigger amplitude etc.

Common I am not such dumb as last few days, I swear (maybe my last STA PB was too much for my brain).
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
118
Thanks Ron, i think I have deafult settings (foto) - it means soft, yes ?
Correct.

It should be noted that in the Orca2's case, soft setting and hard setting are biometric matchings. It's different from a hyperfin where soft and hard translate to the ideal power transmission setting of the fin. With the DOL-Fin, this is more of a personal setting to match the geometry of your foot and ankle flexibility. It has very little to do with with finding an optimum power setting or swimming speed for the fin. When you have the angle right for your biometrics, it will be right for you regardless of the desired swimming speed you want to achieve.
 

Jackin

Active Member
Jul 12, 2013
24
5
43
Thanks Ron, thats all what I need to know.

Another question - what style do you prefer i CWT/spearfishing to submerge ? Bend in waist and knees and kick Orca uplift to use weight for submerge or anything else ? With kick uplift style sometimes I get wrong orientation/rotation, I think that it can be done in better style, I dont know. Usually I am using 5mm neoprene setup with lot of buoyancy.
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
118
Thanks Ron, thats all what I need to know.

Another question - what style do you prefer i CWT/spearfishing to submerge ? Bend in waist and knees and kick Orca uplift to use weight for submerge or anything else ? With kick uplift style sometimes I get wrong orientation/rotation, I think that it can be done in better style, I dont know. Usually I am using 5mm neoprene setup with lot of buoyancy.
I use a fairly traditional duck dive; bend at the waist to drive head down, then straighten to raise the fin and let the weight drive you down. If I have a spear, I'll hold that with one hand and to an arm pull with the other. Otherwise, I'll arm pull with both hands.
 

cdavis

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2003
4,003
777
218
71
There are two styles of duck dive that should work with the Orca. What Ron describes is what I usually use with bifins for with my x18 Dolfin. The second style used to be taught by Performance Freediving (not sure what they are doing now). Bend at the waist, arms down, bend the knees and bring the heels up to touch your butt, straighen at the waist and shoot the legs and fins straight up, let the weight drive you down. Supposed to be more energy efficient and better penetration.

I've practiced both in the pool, the PFI way is more energy efficient, but the timing is tricky for me. I don't see any difference in penetration. With an Orca, things might be different because of the mass of the fin and the mass of the water that is contained in the cowling. I played with an Orca2 for a few days,(oh my! what a wonderful fin) tried both systems, could not feel much difference. I suspect the PFI way is better if practiced enough to get good at it.
 

REVAN

The Right Stuff
Mar 19, 2009
812
360
118
The top picture below was my display at DEMA Show in the Deeper Blue booth. Showing more than just monofins here, we also had the Pilot-SR1 stereo fins and the experimental streamlined scuba kit. In spite of this scuba kit being of a fairly conventional layout, the concept of streamlining scuba equipment is so foreign to most divers that they could not tell what it was. One diver actually speculated that the nosecone fairing was some kind of elbow rest so that you can lean against your tank if you are feeling too lazy to stand next to it. :(

The bottom line is that there there is a long way to go in general education for diving hydrodynamics before we can expect any commercial revolutions in the capabilities of scuba equipment. It's too bad that divers and the scuba industry have become so stunted and unable to grow.

FYI: I've been thinking of doing a limited production run of the Pilot SR1 fins. Even though the parts count is higher, I'll just assume the same price as the Pilot2 monofins, as they are made with similar construction techniques ($599 US + shipping). If I can get enough interested parties together, I'll make a small batch of them and we'll see what you all think of the design. Let me know if you are interested in this.

DEMA_Display.jpg
Pilot_SR1_2.png
 
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