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Extreme Dolfinism G2

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Very interesting video and information regarding your strap system.
I always regarded shoes as a superior system (given they are the right type and model of course) but your straps have me quite intrigued and you make a good case for them.
Having said that, would you consider it of value to have the top strap going lower towards the toes, for extra leverage and better force distribution ?
Another point, the plate is flat, while the bottom of a foot is arched (especially when the foot is pointed). How about a more anatomically shaped plate that would provide closer foot contact and power transfer ?
 

Toes are weak in the lifting mode. They cannot supply enough force to have it be worth supporting with the strap. So, I don't think there is benefit to having toe coverage on the strap setup. Plus, I like being able to wiggle my toes. It is more comfortable that way.

Also, feet are generally designed for standing on a flat surface, and in testing I prefered the flat plate to a curved one. So, mostly flat is what I went with, though I use about 5 degrees of bend in the foot plate for size 44 and 45 feet. If arch support was a problem for someone, I suppose it would be possible to combine an orthotic arch support with the dive sock. I haven't had the need, and so I haven't tried it out; but It doesn't seem like it would be an unsolvable situation. Arch support or not, it is much better than a hyperfin on foot comfort.
 
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Thanks Ron,

We get in and out of the boat a lot during the day, fins off and on many times. I thought the bike shoes were OK getting on and off, maybe not quite as fast or easy as bifins, but that was mostly because of the monofin structure, I think. The Orca looks easier and faster.

Do you know anyone wearing it completely barefoot for hours, repeated days? Looks like the nylon straps might require at least nylon socks.
 
cdavis said:
...Do you know anyone wearing it completely barefoot for hours, repeated days? Looks like the nylon straps might require at least nylon socks.
Click to expand...

You should wear something for chafing. Even cotton socks will work fine, but I usually wear a neoprene dive sock, 2mm low cut for warm water and thicker as necessary for cold water.
 
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I could also envision a hybrid, of a cycling shoe carbon sole with a strap system up on top. Then again, the possibilities for experimenting are virtually endless...
 
nice to see the fin moved around... What you do and make is admirable.... I hope some competition divers Will start do some 200+ m DYN dives, or at least shoot some footage to show what it's capable of... I'd like to see it tested and see the potential unfold... Someone with a relatively well established max distance using a hyperfin, to see how it measures up....
 
Not even the previous version... that was the proof-of-principle prototype. There have been so many improvements made since Natalia's 2010 dynamic in Okinawa.
 
Apneaddict said:
Natalia did that with the previous version.

Impressive swim.
Click to expand...

Nope. I deliberately wrote "Someone with a relatively well established max distance using a hyperfin, to see how it measures up...." In all fairness Natalia is not that person, she could have done a world record that day, and probably everytime she dives. She is not really doing "max" dives IMO...

In my view Natalias dive was evidence of the prototype being "most likely quite good - and good enough for a WC dive". Not to take anything away from the Orca (prototype) but - in all fairness - it is difficult to see her limit, and therefore difficult to interpret that dive...

What we need is comparison.
 
It's a proven strong competitor for any monofin as far as i'm concerned with much of the evidence being natalias swim with it , the only question is whether it's marginally better or marginally worse, what does she hold back 20 % or more because she's so much better, I think she's pushing close to her limits like everyone else , and swimming close to her best with minimal dolfin experience makes me expect it to be slightly superior to a regular monofin.
 
Here's a different sports analogy as to how I think her distance swim with the orca compares to a hyperfin., lets say usain bolt in his last 30 track meets times for the 100m's ranges from 9.58 secs to 9.9secs, then some one comes along with a claimed new super shoe and in one run with it he clocks 9.62 secs, my bet is it's actually better, the reason, mostly because it's one of one attempt not the best of 30 attempts and it's extremely close to his best time. Very loose analogy and not really checked against the true variance in performances + I've been drinking.
 
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Yes, as I wrote, I think Nathalia is holding back, and looking at her carrier I think it's quite obvious... We cannot really sat a lot about that dive about any measures of performance except that it must have felt good to her and good enough to do a long dive. The rest is just speculations....
 
I rarely post but I just want to say that I'm following your developments with a keen eye Ron! would definitely like to see some graphical data like what you've released with the other fins and maybe (somehow? I don't know how) some data on power output? I don't know much about physics/engineers but would be keen to have some idea on the power output for CWT dives!
 
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Natalia certainly has a history of records that can lead to the impression that she is holding back. There have been several instances where someone takes a record from her, and she reclaims it again in fairly short order. In the past year or so, she has been making noteable advancements and setting new dynamic records at both Individual's in 2013 and Team's in 2014. But, in 2012 at the Team World Championships her dynamic performance was 208m with a hyperfin. That is quite a bit less than she did with the POP Orca two years earlier. Why do so much less, if she has so much capability in reserve?

The point here is that impressions can be misleading. The competitor's mindset is to not take foolish and unnecessary risks, but to underperform to any significant measure is not a true competitor's MO. It would be hard to train to be the best, if that is your mindset; and presently, Natalia is both the best and a true competitor.
 
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I don't think Natalia ever holds back in competitions.

She's giving 100% and with constant training over the decades, just keeps getting better!

The Dol-fin prototype swim was quite slow, but appeared to use little energy per kick... So a long breath hold and minimal expenditure was likely the optimal way she felt that the foil needed to be swum at the time.

She may be the best Freediver of all time. Nothing but respect and admiration for her accomplishments and I know she's very particular about her equipment to maximize every performance.
 
I guess it would be appropriate to say that I set my 175m NR and my 176m PB dynamics were done with the Orca. Also, Wes Lapp used an Orca to set his 172m NR, which I'm pretty sure was his PB too.
 
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I believe in this fin and the concept. But like I said: We need some solid comparison dives, not anecdotal stories or too much speculation - wich is fine in itself, but not really valid of the fin efficiency. Plenty of that in the terrible Lunocet thread, making pioneering fin invention and advancement look stupid, borderline criminal and probably make people hesitant before moving on to a new product.

Comparison dives are not easy to get by, because then we need someone who master both type of fins, and repeatedly do max, or (very) near max dives, to a distance that is near top of the pop (we cannot look at 100m dives fx, mostly because we are not confident that such a distance, much shorter than world class dives, are valid).

The Nathalia dive is very interesting, because it is such a long swim. Except Natalia breakes world records at will.

Didn't know about the 208 m DYN at team WC 2012, but having a brief look at it, she underperforms in every dive:

RUSSIA
LASTNAMEFIRSTNAMEAPRPCARDPENPEN OTHERSDISCIPLINEPOINTS
MolchanovaNatalia168208White00DYN104.0
MolchanovaNatalia05:3007:06White00STA85.2
MolchanovaNatalia8888Red00CWT0.0


But listen: I believe in this fin concept. I'd recommend it anytime. I'd just like to see some more long dives with it. Some comparison
 
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Again, I'd say that the the shorter dynamic is still evidence that she does not hold back, at least not more than other freedivers do. It is always a battle of the mind to determine if you should come up now, or try for another KKG cycle, and sometimes we get it wrong. She breaks records through intense training, and like any of us, she can have a competition that does not go as well as others. As a competitor myself, I find it hard to comprehend anyone putting so much effort into training to just throw the game for no particular reason. For whatever reasons, 208m was what she could do that day. But, I think that is enough on that topic.

The bottom line is that baiyoke is right that good comparison dives are rare. There are just so many variables in how a fin functions, and getting someone who is equally proficient with both hyperfins and something like the Orca is also rare. The many who dive hyperfins have no experience with foils, and the few who use the Orca no longer use, or in some cases have barely ever used, hyperfins. The only remedy for this situation that I can think of is to make the Orca more available and get more divers using it so that there will be more comparisons available. That is the goal behind the Orca2. It is not a huge advancement in performance and technology over the Orca1. But, I can make it in higher volume so that it is not so rare that it is an enigma. Of course, I made incremental improvements where I could to make it a better product, but the basic technology is fairly similar with the significant exception of how it is manufactured. I'm hoping that as Orca2s ship out, there will be more information circulating on how it is working.

Of course, I want that those reports to be encouraging, but once the hardware ships out, the die is pretty much cast. My opportunities to affect the performance outcome of the Orca2 basically ends when the tape goes on the box.
 
I'm also perhaps being too focused on the DYN max situation. The Orca is most likely equivalent to a top notch hyperfin, depending on choice of technique.

The Orca has many advantages other than a narrow efficiency and competition focus, and that makes it a good product in the end...
 
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Now you are talking things I'm interested in. Beating around on the reef for hours is my thing, not max dives or competition. My x18 (prototype for the x20) works great and I don't think it will ever wear out, but would the Orca2 be better? Enough to justify the purchase price? I'm a believer in the principle that old guys deserve the best gear available, gotta get one of those things on my feet.
 
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