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Extreme Dolfinism

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
For long distance swimming the DOL-Fin designs completely beat traditional monofins. The reasons are because:
1. The load is distributed to the calf muscles, making the muscle load much more even. Leg fatigue is GREATLY delayed or eliminated.
2. Load on the feet is much more even, preventing problems with blisters, tendonitis and other issues caused by tight monofin footpockets.
3. The DOL-Fin design allows five or more stroke styles, each of which emphasizes different muscle groups, greatly improving endurance over long swims, contrary to the monofin where really only one or two styles will move you with any efficiency
 
I really hope to try the DOL-fin out and see what it feels like. I've only been swimming with a monofin for a few months, and while I'm totally loving it I'm open to the idea that something even better exists.
 
Noa,

what You call "long swims in open waters" Ron calls "sea hiking" and that's something I love to do too and I did my first day in HI. Here's why I am sold on Orca's comfort of bike shoes.

I swam to Capt. Cook monument with my Starfin hyperfin that's over 2miles round trip, about 3.5 kilometers. About half way my feet couldn't take the pain no more but I had to swim back, there was no other way. I couldn't continue all the way back, I had to take it off and swim modified freestyle no fins.

Don't take me wrong, this is excellent fin, You can see my posts here about it and quality is superb. But my Starfin use is limited to pool and depth training or better yet max attempt. And that's with extra big footpockets I requested for max comfort. So I did pool PB with Starfin and I did super fast and easy 53m CWT (1:29 I know, too fast) but for SEAHIKING this is absolute no no. First day I got blisters and bloody toes which affected my remaining two weeks of diving. To the point where I gave up monofin and just did pulldowns or large pocket bi-fins.

Now, if Orca with it's bike shoes can provide comfort for really long seahiking then this would be ultimate freedivers tool - depth, pool and ocean exploration. So far no fin can do all of it


Picture below is last day, day 15 and my toes are partially healed. BTW it shows You what seahiking will do to You (3-6 hrs ocean time every day) I was 205lb on day 1
 

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nostres, do you think perhaps a softer more flexible blade would have made a difference? My fin is a Waterways Nemo, and while I love the footpockets the blade is a middle stiffness, which is ok for me for up to 800m and fairly fast but wears me out if I go farther. I've been wondering what a softer blade would do for my longer swims of 1-2 miles, which I can do with Cressi 3000LD bifins no problem. I like swimming with the mono better, but cannot do the distance I can with bifins. I'm thinking that the DOL-fin, with a broader operating range, could do both for me. Any thoughts?
 
I've tried various iterations of the Dolphin, including the Orca and an early X18 design (I think - Ron?) over the summer when Ron came up to visit in Vancouver.

Of all the models he had that day, I was most drawn to the X18 for its all around use and relative high performance. It's great to hear him say that there are further improvements.

For longer swims, especially on the surface, I was happy to see how it worked very well in all positions, especially for my favourite: side dolphin (I call it shark), which is a really practical swimming position for distance as it makes breathing simple and gives you many opportunities to check what's around you.

Comfort on the feet is a big factor for distance swims, for sure, and warmth a close second.

Pete
 
Ron, would it be possible to modify the Classic or HP (to add some kind of extension bars) to get the blade further from the feel like in Orca and X18? I wonder if the footpocket is strong enough for that.
 
the info keeps getting better and better.
got some questions from all the comments...

Eric, you say that the Dolphin allows five swim strokes, how are there so many, what are they ?

Nostres, does the Orca also use bike shoes ? i thought it used strap bindings like the Classic and HP. you explain about your swim with your Starfins. have you used the Orca
for longer swims ? how was it like ?
also, your Starfin i guess is not built for sea hiking, hydrotouring. if it where, do you not think it would work better ?

two general questions. many are presenting the fact that the Dolfins are much better due to the comfort provided by the bike shoes. true, but that does not say much about the actual fin system itself.
also, the argument in regards to following nature is of course valid. however, while deciding to inspire designs from cetacean tail design, one must remain aware that humans biomechanicly move very differently. so how much of that can be carried over to fin design.
last but not least, although i might be sounding fairly critical, i am a great believer in Rons designs and do think that the Dolphin is the way forward. playing devils advocate is just to better understand the whole picture and look at all fins from many perspectives.
 
Great points, Noa.

I was at first skeptical that bike shoes would ever be a decent attachment for the feet, as I love the feel of good training fins and my hyperfins.

However....

I was pleasantly surprised at the relative lack of drag they presented.

The version of the lunocet I tried had a host of issues that preventing me from properly understanding the level of drag created by the shoes alone - ie. not as much I would have thought.

Again, the distinction is best reduced to sprinting vs. efficiency (distance swimming or exertion during apnea).

I would love to see a DOLfin with a magic footpocket that is streamlined and has little energy loss. But the Orca is pretty it, thanks to the fairing.

No doubt there can be improvements on that front, but the X18 was very good with the cycling shoes.
 
i am certainly a great believer in bike shoes for monofin use and have been experimenting with them since early 2002 with a pair of Sidi shoes at the time. when Ted came out with the Lunocet and was looking for a footpocket solution, i spoke to him about bike shoes and he was quick to jump on that option...
have been speaking to Ron about the X18 since some time but i have decided to wait and see how it develops before taking the deposit step.
what impressions did you get from it ? did you swim, dive with it ? very curious to hear what you have to say and how you can compare it to the Orca.
thanks for any info...
 
I dove with the X18 and if I recall the ascent from 35m took 2 more strokes than with the Orca (10% more). The thrust and behaviour were extremely similar, with slightly higher drag.
 
People keep asking about endorsements from big name Freedivers - Yet Eric has been swimming with this thing for quite awhile - and has reviewed it extensively. No-one I know is more precise about stuff like this. Then theres Pete - one of the most natural fin swimmers I've ever seen.

Both these guys have been free diving with mono fins longer than pretty much anybody. We all dove with the lunocet in the Bahamas so I know how thoroughly they assess these things.

I think what's needed is a review from a no-name free diver who talks a lot - namely me I'll take it to the pool and A/B it against my Starfins for endurance, (distance v breathe up time) - and how slow, fast and far I can swim with it. I'll use the data from my F11 to quantify my observations.

Also - Nostres - I've done two mile swims in my Starfins and been thoroughly comfortable throughout - no socks. I'm guessing yours is tighter - the blade angle makes surface swimming really nice though. No question cycling shoes will beat it in cold water though.
 
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nostres said:
Now, if Orca with it's bike shoes can provide comfort for really long seahiking then this would be ultimate freedivers tool - depth, pool and ocean exploration. So far no fin can do all of it
Click to expand...

Nostres said Orca here, but it will be the DOL-Fin X models that use bike shoes. The Orca is as shown on the Smith Aerospace Corp. web site and uses adjustable binding straps for the foot attachment.

The focus of the new freediving model, DOL-Fin X-18, is to develop a monofin with extreme comfort and durability for long range recreational freediving and sea-hiking, get the manufacturing cost down as much as possible to provide better value to a larger portion of the potential market and make it swim as much like the DOL-Fin Orca as possible (because the Orca is awesome to swim with).

The Orca is the best fin I've ever used. It is comfortable, versatile and the performance is amazing. But it's hard to build it and it's, therefore, too expensive for many divers to justify the expense unless they are very serious about every last bit of performance.

The DOL-Fin X-18 will provide a less costly option to get into the foil technology; but unlike the Dol-Fin HP which needs a different swimming technique from the Orca, the X-18 feels and swims like the Orca. If someone becomes proficient on an X-18, and then gets into competitive freediving and wants to get a little better performance from their fin, they could upgrade to the Orca and get the benefits of the streamlining without having to learn any new skills other than learning to use the foot binding straps. This makes sense to me, and I'm just trying to provide better value to my customers.
 
rovanpera said:
Ron, would it be possible to modify the Classic or HP (to add some kind of extension bars) to get the blade further from the feel like in Orca and X18? I wonder if the footpocket is strong enough for that.
Click to expand...

It can be done, because that is essentially what I have done to develop the new designs. However, I don't think it will be very practical for someone to try to do the conversion themselves. Instead, I'm planning to offer discounts to existing customers who want to get into a DOL-Fin X-18. I think this will be a preferable method for most customers to make the conversion.
 
REVAN said:
Nostres said Orca here, but it will be the DOL-Fin X models that use bike shoes. The Orca is as shown on the Smith Aerospace Corp. web site and uses adjustable binding straps for the foot attachment.
Click to expand...

nostres said:
Now, if Orca with it's bike shoes can provide comfort for really long seahiking then this would be ultimate freedivers tool - depth, pool and ocean exploration. So far no fin can do all of it
Click to expand...

noa said:
Nostres, does the Orca also use bike shoes ? i thought it used strap bindings like the Classic and HP.
Click to expand...

I keep saying Orca but of course I meant X18 - the one with bicycle shoes


It's probably that Your feet can take more too, You dive a lot and often. I don't dive for months and then I go for a big one. Suddenly BOOM! and my feet get 6hrs ocean time more that they can handle.

And I say it again, Starfins are awesome fins. Just because they gave me blisters doesn't mean s***. It's just that when we are talking about Ron's blades people have to understand it's completely different breed, different technology. Ron studied hydrodynamics to develop those fins and they work on different principals than regular monofins.
It was probably explained here before but it took me to meet him in person and listen to the whole story to finally get it

Noa, yes most likely softer blade would help comfort wise but soft is too soft
for quick return from depths
 
Maybe so - but some of my fins!! Speaking of feet - for awhile I had these weird lumps on there from mono finning - painless - but still weird. Then, suddenly, they vanished. Seemed like over night.

My Starfins is fairly soft - it's very good for rec diving - and I've had it down past 30 meters without feeling any lack of power - but in winter, with more weight and a 5 mil suit, I prefer my Tropol - which is much stiffer.

Be interesting to take both to DBH and compare for depth.
 
Ron,
how different are an X18 and an Orca without fairing ? can you post a picture of a fairingless Orca to get an idea of what it looks like and how it could work ?
would you consider a fairingless Orca a viable option until the X18 is in production ?
 

Ron,- Is the blade any broader now than on the version that was available for try in Okinawa?
 

The DOL-Fin X18 and Orca have characteristic dimensions that are within about 5% of each other. This is deliberate and why the 2 fins swim so similarly. The Orca has the streamline fairing and is therefore a little faster and glides a little better. Hence, the X18 is not an exact copy because these differences were accounted for in this new design.

The mechanical structure for the X18 is a lot different from the Orca. Because the X18 is using the shoe system and also eliminating the fairing, I was able to redesign the support structure for the fin into a more simple robust exo-skeletal frame (the X in X18 is short for exo-skeletal). What was made from 4 aluminum parts plus an expensive fiberglass fairing in the Orca is now being replaced by 2 aluminum parts on the X18. This saves time and money in manufacturing the new design to help keep the costs down.

I had gotten inquiries from several divers about getting an Orca without the fairing. However, I did not want to do this for several reasons. The Orca uses the fairing to form side rails which hold the fin in alignment with the users feet. Without it, the fin is very loose on the feet and difficult to control, as it would be always sliding from side to side. Also the fairing adds stability, strength and redundancy to the Orca's sub-frame assembly. Without the fairing installed, I was not happy with the layout of the architecture from a strength and safety perspective.

I felt I could make something that would look better, be more stable and easy to use, less costly to make and be stronger and safer than using an Orca without the fairing. This was the inspiration for developing the X18. I am a little OCD about doing things the best way I can find when it comes to engineering and design. I did the right thing instead of what was easy, and it will pay off in the long run, I think. No one will want to do business with someone they don't trust to do the job right.
 
Ron, do you have a target price in mind for the x-18? and an availability date? thanks!
 
neurodoc said:
Ron, do you have a target price in mind for the x-18? and an availability date? thanks!
Click to expand...

Based on the available data, I'm expecting it will be priced around $830 to $850. This will be sold as a complete fin kit with everything needed to get in the water and swim (sans mask, snorkel and swimsuit of course).

The timing is a little more difficult to pinpoint. The truth is it will be available as soon as it is ready. I think that it will be ready to ship some time in the first half of 2012 (probably May - June time frame). I expect to be getting a few early editions out before that for evaluations and advertising. The final X18 product will be similar to the Alpha prototype, but it will have some noticeable differences as well.

When I can show customers what they will be buying and have a better defined time frame, I will be taking pre-orders from interested customers. This will happen before the first wave of manufacturing, and fins will be assembled and shipped out on a first to order - first to ship basis.
 
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