Free Diving Schools

[island_sands]

Yiasou Stavros,


As a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies we realised that there are areas for improvement. This is what my team is aiming at. To make an other course outline, but yet, according to our view a little different. We are not going to invent the wheel from scratch! I understand the objection though, of the current players in the field. As with every other aspect of our life, people who dominate an area, tend to seek exclussivity! Correct? And they engage in offensive behaviour which is actually a defensive action. I am not underestimating you or AIDA or anyone else.

Which Greek agencies? I was unaware that Greece had several freedive training agencies. Which are they?

Freediving is not that much of a new sport. Read your history and you will see that people were freediving before scuba and the physics of freediving has been studied since days before the late Jacques Mayol. Freediving history dates some 4500 years back, and the science of it started with guys like Mayol, Cousteau, Maiorca... Records in freediving started in the 1940s... perhaps you could watch the Big Blue, even that will give you a little history. Also these records were staged by CMAS at that point.

Who is engaging in defensive behaviour? The concern of those who have expressed views here are only of SAFETY, and when some newcomer with little or no freediving experience suddenly has an epitome and wants to write a new freediving manual based on his scuba and pharmaceutical experience, alarms are raised.

No-one is afraid of competition. Bring it on. However, if you check out the freediving agencies and you see the personalities that are running them, e.g. Kirk Krack/Mandy Cruickshank, Martin Stepanek, AIDA (board of members with several record holders and renowned international instructor trainers), when a new unknown person comes along and says he wants to write a manual and start teaching people a small shadow of doubt is naturally going to cross people's minds.

The structure of AIDA is not for certificate collection. Like PADI, NAUI, it is a means of training people gradually up the ladder as they gain experience. As a PADI MSDT you will be well aware how this works.

In a previous thread you mentioned market research. Research is not copying and pasting someone else's course outlines. It is research into the freediving world consisting of statistics, sales, numbers of students who get certified a year, men/women %tages, etc etc. The outlines should be written by your own research into freediving physics and then written based on your past experiences with teaching freediving. I dont understand how someone who has never instructed freediving or has little freediving experience can write an instructor manual and course outlines to then go out and teach.

If Al Tillman knew what you were doing he would roll in his grave. May he R.I.P.

 

[diveoceanos]

Apparently you haven't read all my posts above. I would rather prefer to answer to your concerns about safety with some of my personal values:

It is more interesting to work as a team member rather than being a solo performer.​

Challenging situations make our life more interesting.​

It is always better to listen carefully what other people have to say and to strive to have a complete understanding of the situation before we talk.​

Change is constant​

Acquiring and sharing as much knowledge as possible is a lifestyle no matter if it is part of your job or not.​

________________________________________________________________​

Yes, free diving is old. Science is old. AIDA aims at standardising the somehow free style in the education today, and managed to come up with standards and guidelines for competitions and safety during competitions. But simply you may not ignore the fact that free diving agencies like AIDA formed officially on the December, 1999. During these years they have done a lot but yet it is too early to believe that it is the one and only way.​

You mentioned history. Just like many other cases in history including the history of Nitrox diving and the history of Medicine it self. Medicine started with people knowing "secrets" and sharing with their students. Today all scientists in the medical field publish their findings and report their case studies in medical magazines so other people can follow the progress and contribute to the evolution! Nitrox has been considered a corporate secret for oil companies working in the north sea in the 60s.​

You are questioning our safety approach and worry about it. So beat. I can do nothing about your fears as I was always in favour of the belief that if one has this kind of problems one should seeks the help of a professional in this field. ​

Furthermore there is no single course outline that has been writen based on personal findings and knowledge. Check what you teach as an AIDA instructor and let the others know how much of this information is original. Maybe the haldane effect, or the Bohr effect, or probably the diving reflex, the mammalian reflex, or perhaps the adaptation of human beings to withstand hypoxia / reoxygenation, or maybe the gas laws? Valsava maneuveur maybe? Or buoyancy? Or maybe the guidelines on how to select a wetsuit and fins? Or maybe you invented a way on how to measure lung capacities and functional volumes. If Henry and Boyle knew that you are claiming ownership of their theories would probably laugh in their grave! Keep dreaming and continue your fight against dangerous approaches!​

 

[island_sands]

Apparently you haven't read all my posts above. I would rather prefer to answer to your concerns about safety with some of my personal values:

i am certainly reading your posts above. Which are the Greek freediving agencies that you mention?

 

[diveoceanos]

i am certainly reading your posts above. Which are the Greek freediving agencies that you mention?

I have no intention of metnioning any names. Do you really expect an answer? There is no intention of creating any conflict. And of course analysing the course materials of any agency in a forum like this is only a foolish and selfish behaviour. Like I said there are areas for improvement. That would be enough for now.

 

[harbour seal]

sorry but the only similarity scuba diving and tech diving share with freediving is that they take place in the water - apart from that point most things are not that similar

that is funny stuff stavros, funny stuff.

Who is engaging in defensive behaviour? The concern of those who have expressed views here are only of SAFETY, and when some newcomer with little or no freediving experience suddenly has an epitome and wants to write a new freediving manual based on his scuba and pharmaceutical experience, alarms are raised.

sands - hear, hear, amen sister!
---

here is a question for you diveoceanos:

first, imagine the head of a established freediving school. this person is even a recognized master of freediving, including practice, teaching and training. for argument's sake let's say it is umberto pelizzari who actually wrote a book called 'Manual of Freediving: Underwater On a Single Breath'.

now, one day umberto has a great idea of adding scuba classes to his established freediving school, in order to attract more customers.

as a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies umberto realized that there are areas for improvement. he is not going to invent the wheel from scratch! furthermore there is no single course outline that has been written based on personal findings and knowledge.

umberto's university background in relative subject, further education and training with a number of pharmaceutical companies for about 9 years, individual daily study with an accumulated study time of more than 10000 hours in relative subjects, and an active FREEDIVING diving professional. this scuba stuff is a piece of cake after all that!

incredibly, umberto has discovered problems with their approach after just reading the manuals. in addition, umberto's qualifications are crystal clear, he wrote the manual for freediving after all. if that isn't enough, he is the director of an entire school and has trained many other instructors.

did you know that scuba was only invented sixty years ago, how complicated can it be?

---

so, would you say our famous freediver is qualified to write the outline for these scuba classes? does this seem reasonable to you?

note: umberto is used only in the hypothetical sense, i have no idea whether he has any actual scuba knowledge or not.

 

[diveoceanos]

that is funny stuff stavros, funny stuff.




sands - hear, hear, amen sister!
---

here is a question for you diveoceanos:

first, imagine the head of a established freediving school. this person is even a recognized master of freediving, including practice, teaching and training. for argument's sake let's say it is umberto pelizzari who actually wrote a book called 'Manual of Freediving: Underwater On a Single Breath'.

now, one day umberto has a great idea of adding scuba classes to his established freediving school, in order to attract more customers.

as a matter of fact, after going through a number of course materials from Greek agencies umberto realized that there are areas for improvement. he is not going to invent the wheel from scratch! furthermore there is no single course outline that has been written based on personal findings and knowledge.

incredibly, umberto has discovered problems with their approach after just reading the manuals and umberto's qualifications are crystal clear, he wrote the manual for freediving after all. if that isn't enough, he is the director of an entire school and has trained many other instructors.

it is just scuba after all. did you know that scuba was only invented sixty years ago, how complicated can it be? umberto's university background in relative subject, further education and training with a number of pharmaceutical companies for about 9 years, individual daily study with an accumulated study time of more than 10000 hours in relative subjects, and an active FREEDIVING diving professional. this scuba stuff is a piece of cake after all that!

---

so, would you say our famous freediver is qualified to write the outline for these scuba classes? does this seem reasonable to you?

note: umberto is used only in the hypothetical sense, i have no idea whether he has any actual scuba knowledge or not.

Well yes, he is entitled to do whatever he thinks is a step forward. There is no law that would take him to the court.

And of course Umberto has in depth knowledge of diving. Let him do it. Let him create a team with experienced SCUBA educators who think that there are areas for improvement in the current educational systems, let him input his knowledge and experience, blend it with that of other professionals and then evaluate his team's end product. How is that?

 

[ADR]

I love it when yet another character turns up from the world of scuba to save us from ourselves and our ignorant freediving mystic ways.rofl Maybe it happens everytime a scuba club runs a club night and features the Big Blue or something similar.

The two worlds have little in common and I have spent much time in both. Freediving is a sport whereas scuba is a pastime/recreation.

 

[diveoceanos]

I love it when yet another character turns up from the world of scuba to save us from ourselves and our ignorant freediving mystic ways.rofl Maybe it happens everytime a scuba club runs a club night and features the Big Blue or something similar.

The two worlds have little in common and I have spent much time in both. Freediving is a sport whereas scuba is a pastime/recreation.

It is amazing how people still did not get the picture or they have a tendency to read selectively. Re-writing, for the Nst time. :

A group of experienced FREEDIVING Instructors, along with some people with medical backround, together with some people that know how to write a course outline according to an agency standards, and a pharmacist (that's me), created a team, all sharing in common their love and passion for diving expressed their wish to write a course outline. The invitation for anyone who thinks have anything to contribute is open.

Please do not put words in my mouth that never been used!

It is only strange how people react to this initiative, just because they want to keep a dead-end discussion on going!

Cheer up!

 

[ADR]

Well in the interests of not reading selectively, I would like you to clarify if these words are from your organisations website. If they are then you really are a long way from the public statement of your organisations directions and expertise. I suggest you should stick to SCUBA and draw on existing expertise (AIDA, F.I.T, PFI etc) for any clients and customers that are interested in Freediving Education. Any of those groups I'm sure would partner with you and assist you.

"Okeanos is a newly formed company started two years ago as an education centre for sport SCUBA diving. It also deals with imports and sales/distribution of SCUBA diving gear. The friendly approach to its customers soon resulted in the formation of Oceanos Diving Club where people may meet and organise their diving activities. Hence one may find in Oceanos all essential Es for sport SCUBA diving, which are: Equipment, Education and Experiences."

 

[shoutatthesky]

Okay then Oceanos, seems like your getting quite a lot of flack here so let me help you clarify.
From reading your posts I gather your intention and your role within this company is as a coordinator of a new branch covering freediving training.
You admit that you have little or no freediving experience, but a group of other instructors within your organisation do.
The purpose of your 'project' is to gather information from other agencies, and then using your own background in, and knowledge of diving physiology, as well as the combined knowledge of the experienced freedivers in your group, you plan to write a formal document that lays out the structure of the freediving education your company will provide.
Am I correct?

I think you must understand the point of view of people like Sam and Sara. They are both highly trained SCUBA and AIDA instructors. I think their concern is not of competition from competing agencies but that unknowledgable people will be compiling other organisations' systems - systems they don't understand - and then carrying out the dangerous exercise of teaching people things they don't really understand themselves thereby putting people at risk and giving freediving an undeserved reputation as a dangerous activity.

You can read all the books you can find, watch all the movies and video footage available, surf the internet and read all the subjective views on freediving you like, but until you have an in depth, personal experience based knowledge then I can't see how you can really do better than what AA, PFI, FIT or AIDA have already done.

(BTW - you can certainly reinvent the wheel. It may have started as a barely round stone disc with wooden axles but that would hardly suffice on an F1 car would it now?)

 

[Ale Andres]

A group of experienced FREEDIVING Instructors, along with some people with medical backround, together with some people that know how to write a course outline according to an agency standards, and a pharmacist (that's me), created a team, all sharing in common their love and passion for diving expressed their wish to write a course outline. The invitation for anyone who thinks have anything to contribute is open.

Mr Oceanos:
I've got the sensation that you are changing your speech as this discution is getting deeper...if you are part of a team in wich are involved "a group of experienced freediving instructors" why don't you ask them for the outlines? surely they will have everything you need...
The people involved in this discution is REALLY very experienced, if you're looking for some good research you must listen them, and i think that if they are reacting in this way, some reason must be...
Sorry for my bad english, hope this is understandable.

 

[island_sands]

You are questioning our safety approach and worry about it. So beat. I can do nothing about your fears as I was always in favour of the belief that if one has this kind of problems one should seeks the help of a professional in this field.

Um, hello? I have some choice words to answer to this part of your thread but because i am an educated young lady I will not.

If Henry and Boyle knew that you are claiming ownership of their theories would probably laugh in their grave! Keep dreaming and continue your fight against dangerous approaches!

Who is claiming ownership of their theories? NOBODY. But i tell what people are claiming ownership of here, and it seems that you don't understand this concept but it's called INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. That is why people are reluctant to part with outlines to somebody who cant even name himself publicly, say who he is, hide behind his username, and then try and weasle out information from people instead of openly introducing himself and going about it the right way.

As has been suggested above, why dont you approach the professionals who have written and published outlines. Samdive I see is not willing to part with hers, (rightly so, as it's her INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY). Perhaps some of the other organisations might be willing to assist you, if you approach them directly instead of just posting a request "willy-nilly" in open forum hoping that someone is going to reply with the outlines and say "here you are mate".

There are more professional ways of carrying out your market research as you call it, and in my professional opinion you have not gone the right way about it.

Hope the water in Cyprus is clear for you today.

Best,
Sara-Lise Haith

 

[ADR]

"A group of experienced FREEDIVING Instructors, along with some people with medical backround, together with some people that know how to write a course outline according to an agency standards, and a pharmacist (that's me)......."

Is it just me or does it strike anyone else as odd that from that group of people they decide the Pharmacist should write the course outline?

I think I'll get my dentist to fix my car and ask my lawyer to take a look at my leaky sink.

 

[island_sands]

"Okeanos is a newly formed company started two years ago as an education centre for sport SCUBA diving. It also deals with imports and sales/distribution of SCUBA diving gear. The friendly approach to its customers soon resulted in the formation of Oceanos Diving Club where people may meet and organise their diving activities. Hence one may find in Oceanos all essential Es for sport SCUBA diving, which are: Equipment, Education and Experiences."

These Essential E's by the way, are what they teach you in the PADI Instructor Development Course. That is a direct usage of PADI material (copy and paste). I am sure that PADI are flattered! The whole idea of PADI IDCs is to brainwash people into promoting their materials (and teach how to teach of course) but never forget the PADI marketing! There is a whole day on it during the course.

 

[Stavros]

i am certainly reading your posts above. Which are the Greek freediving agencies that you mention?

Hi island_sands
in Greece there is one national freediving agency (also including fin swimming, UW target shooting and spearfishing) called EOYDAKT which is basically representing CMAS in Greece... When freediving took off they also started getting involved in freediving training. If you check the AIDA Int instructor manual you 'll see that their courses are recognised by AIDA (same as PFI or Apnea Academy for example).

This is the only Greek freediving agency - most Greek freediving instructors are using this system (although a certain lack of standardisation does exist). The only other "agencies" are Apnea Academy (which is not a Greek agency just a representative of AA in Greece) and 5 AIDA International instructors (including myself)

That’s the situation in Greece.


I think we should just give this whole subject a rest - Diveoceanos is a scuba diving professional in Cyprus who has decided that there is money to be made in teaching freediving and rather than taking the straight (and more expensive) route of actually getting freediving education from one of the existing Freediving education agencies he has decided to just create his own (which is cheaper). So he is trying to collect information on the net in order to put this together. He has already tried something similar in a Greek freediving forum and got told off and now he is trying it at DB...

Dear Diveoceanos - I sympathise with what you are doing but due to your lack of freediving knowledge you are not taking into account one very important fact of freediving education: A freediving instructor needs a great deal of physical and mental in-water skills which he can only gain through many years of hard work holding his/her breath ... not everything is in a freediving manual. This is a big difference with scuba ... not everything is in a text book.
All freediving instructors are above-average or great freedivers before they become instructors... that you cannot get off the net...

Cheers Stavros

 

[diveoceanos]

Like I was expecting! You are trying to escalate a conflict that has nothing to offer to this forum, apart from satisfying your injured ego. You are searching the internet and my company’s site which is good to find something against me, like a lawyer.

My company is a different part of my life pals. This project has nothing to do with my company. I understand this Sherlock behaviour though. You don't know me, and you are sceptical, because you care about this sport. I give you credit.

However, I can see that your approach is somehow offensive and focuses at attacking my credibility, my knowledge, my capabilities, my personality and you act like a public court that has convicted an initiative before you take the chance to see what this initiative is about. You don't know the facts, nevertheless you seem like you came to a decision. Is there any point to continue tis attack appart from continuing a dead-end discussion?

As for the market research, thanks for your advise. I have access to all valuable information. All I wanted was just something like this (no descriptions, no subheadings, no instructor:student ratios, no time schedules, No text) :

The history of Free Diving
Free Diving Equipment
Diving Physics
Safety Issues - Rescue
Physiology and Problems associated with Free Diving
Diving Techniques
Nutrition and Exercise for Performance Free Diving
Free Diving Competitions
Training sequence and programs
Confined Water Skills
Open Water Skills

Note: Our proposed outline is much more extended than the above example, the perfromance requirements are defined, the skills are described in details, and the duration of the course is by far much longer than any 3-4 day or 1 week program. The philosophy is to have the students under a long period of training with continous performance appraisal, medical tests, spirography, anthropometric measurements, regular excercising in various techniques and associated skills like yoga, marchial arts breathing kata, and continuing coaching / mentoring untill they finish the academy and be complete free divers. We aim in developing the right attidutes, how to deal and control our natural competitiveness, minimise accidents, develop other associated skills with free diving.

P.S. We do have some actual course materials. However our benchmark is higher than any course material. We are planning to base our own texts on sound medical publications, training videos that are currently under development by our own professional team. I don't think we need to get anyone's consent to use universal and widely used concepts of diving physics, and physiology in our courses. We have our own approach about training and on how do built upon ones performance, we have in our team some of the best performers in the field. We have some prototype input with regards to DCS, freediving videography and picture editing, some personal views on training techniques and some special features like spearfishing techniques. We aim at maximising ones performance while staying within safety limits. I have the reassurance of my colleagues that we can definitely bring this project forth, and i feel confident that we can do it.

 

[island_sands]

Good luck.

Like I was expecting! You are trying to escalate a conflict that has nothing to offer to this forum, apart from satisfying your injured ego. You are searching the internet and my company’s site which is good to find something against me, like a lawyer.

My company is a different part of my life pals. This project has nothing to do with my company. I understand this Sherlock behaviour though. You don't know me, and you are sceptical, because you care about this sport. I give you credit.

However, I can see that your approach is somehow offensive and focuses at attacking my credibility, my knowledge, my capabilities, my personality and you act like a public court that has convicted an initiative before you take the chance to see what this initiative is about. You don't know the facts, nevertheless you seem like you came to a decision. Is there any point to continue tis attack appart from continuing a dead-end discussion?

As for the market research, thanks for your advise. I have access to all valuable information. All I wanted was just something like this (no descriptions, no subheadings, no instructor:student ratios, no time schedules, No text) :

The history of Free Diving
Free Diving Equipment
Diving Physics
Safety Issues - Rescue
Physiology and Problems associated with Free Diving
Diving Techniques
Nutrition and Exercise for Performance Free Diving
Free Diving Competitions
Training sequence and programs
Confined Water Skills
Open Water Skills

Note: Our proposed outline is much more extended than the above example, the perfromance requirements are defined, the skills are described in details, and the duration of the course is by far much longer than any 3-4 day or 1 week program. The philosophy is to have the students under a long period of training with continous performance appraisal, medical tests, spirography, anthropometric measurements, regular excercising in various techniques and associated skills like yoga, marchial arts breathing kata, and continuing coaching / mentoring untill they finish the academy and be complete free divers. We aim in developing the right attidutes, how to deal and control our natural competitiveness, minimise accidents, develop other associated skills with free diving.

P.S. We do have some actual course materials. However our benchmark is higher than any course material. We are planning to base our own texts on sound medical publications, training videos that are currently under development by our own professional team. I don't think we need to get anyone's consent to use universal and widely used concepts of diving physics, and physiology in our courses. We have our own approach about training and on how do built upon ones performance, we have in our team some of the best performers in the field. We have some prototype input with regards to DCS, freediving videography and picture editing, some personal views on training techniques and some special features like spearfishing techniques. We aim at maximising ones performance while staying within safety limits. I have the reassurance of my colleagues that we can definitely bring this project forth, and i feel confident that we can do it.

 

[samdive]

I just wonder what your opposition is to becoming an instructor with a recognised agency?

Why go to all this work to rewrite stuff that exists? Why NOT become and AIDA or AA or CMAS instructor? That way not only is the course written for you, you are also able to get insurance, have far better liability cover, your students get a recognised certification and you have another body of instructors to share experiences with - all teaching the same as you.

Why NOT do it that way? I'd be interested to hear....

I guess seeing as you are quite happily spouting PADI-speak in your mails, and showing off your scuba qualifications, you are not trying to write your own Scuba courses, why do that for freediving?

 

[diveoceanos]

I just wonder what your opposition is to becoming an instructor with a recognised agency?

Why go to all this work to rewrite stuff that exists? Why NOT become and AIDA or AA or CMAS instructor? That way not only is the course written for you, you are also able to get insurance, have far better liability cover, your students get a recognised certification and you have another body of instructors to share experiences with - all teaching the same as you.

Why NOT do it that way? I'd be interested to hear....

I guess seeing as you are quite happily spouting PADI-speak in your mails, and showing off your scuba qualifications, you are not trying to write your own Scuba courses, why do that for freediving?

Interesting point of view. Imagine a group of people with a vision! That vision is to come up some day, after hard work to a training system that is longer than average, as detailed as possible, offering as much scientific monitoring as possible of the performance of students, using your prototype work with own training videos. Would any of those organisations you mentioned be interested to change their training courses to meet our expectations? We do have a professional video production studio and we have contributed to various magazines with educational videos, we held seminars with videos! We have people who train themselves, at least 4 times a week for 3-4 hours, they know every single rock in the sea, and they believe they know enough to bring this project forth. I will tell all those people who are ready to give their time, and expertise that they should compromise with what is available allready. Dreamers? Perhaps! Time will show...

Recognition is an other story. Is there an official European Organisation that approves standards and provides accreditation for training courses in Free Diving like for example are the European Technical Commitees or EUF that does this for SCUBA diving? You know pretty well that there are national laws about SCUBA diving, there are EN standards like EN14153/1 throught 3. EN14413/1 and 2, EN250:2000, EN12628:1999 and much more, defining the boundaries of not only training courses but also for equipment manufacturing and maintenance standards and also Service providers standards. Is there something in Free Diving analogous to what is available in SCUBA diving? Just asking.

 

[Nikkey]

I don't understand why everyone is being hostile.
Diveoceanos I am sure is not going to go out and start teaching freediving HIMSELF he is simply on a development team and came to a forum for some information.
I don't see anything wrong with creating a new agency, we have great ones in place but thats what happens when a sport grows. It doesn't mean bad things for us or freediving it just means there will be another group offering a course that will be accessible to people wanting to learn how to freedive. I don't see the problem....