Freedive Cheaters?

[Jorg]

I've seen several topics about doping and cheating over here been pretty active at the moment. But I wonder, who thinks that there are currently some freedivers who are cheating deliberatly or taking doping?

Read the following statements and answer them with yes or no please.

1. There is cheating going on during competitions.
2. There is cheating going on during world record attempts.
3. There are freedivers who are using doping to increase their performance during competitive freediving.
4. There is a world record done by cheating.
5. There is a world record done by using doping.
6. The sport is clean! No doping here.
7. Everybody is honest, no cheating going on.

 

[efattah]

1 Y
2 Y
3 Y
4 Y
5 Y
6 N
7 N

I would even go as far as listing which athletes, and which records are illegitimate, but that would raise another huge argument, and in some cases the evidence is not conclusive.

 

[WillUnderwater]

Let's not get into naming names - but the fact of the matter is cheating is sadly in pretty much any competitive sport - some to a higher degree then others but it does exist..

 

[BennyB]

Just a word of advice in that if you start naming names on an open forum you open yourself and DeeperBlue up to all sorts of litigation issues.

Over the years i've heard plenty of anecdotal stuff but never anything that is remotely near conclusive.

I can't really answer those questions as what I hear and what I know are two completely different issues, and i'm not about to muddy the sport based on a bit of gossip. I'll go as far as answering "maybe, maybe not" to all.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[jay cluskey]

i have not seen or heard of any cheating nor would i like to .
i think the 11:35 thread has already got enough people talking.
i do think though,once somebody has been caught or suspected to have been caught, they should be named and shamed and banned for good.
It is a bit unfair to say somebody is cheating if you do not have concrete evidence

 

[Walrus]

I think it's possible but have so far never seen anyone do it or heard of any real proof of someone doing it. I have been competing since 2002 and seen (and judged some of) at least 20+ world records. If you know how some of these people are training and/or use a similar approach it's a lot easier to understand the level of their performance.

If it has happened I would say it would be a very small number of cases. Most freedivers I know struggle to pay for airfares or pay for Judges for record attempts. I don't know where they would get the money for doping?
Most of the serious accusations I heard of often came from "rival" freedivers and really just trying undermine people's credibility without any real proof.

You also need to be really careful with posts like this. If people really believe that doping is a big issue in the sport it may encourage doping even more. ie if I believed all the top people are doping then the only way I can beat them must be to dope myself. This is quite sad but has hapened in some professional sports. I have seen lot's of clean world records (and top ranking performances) so my assumption is that most if not all the world records are clean.


Cheers,
Wal

 

[pehtran]

To me it is interesting that the talk about cheating is so outrageous to some. Like it is some sort of taboo? Are we living in such a perfect world that even the distant possibility of some athleet using unethical (what is ethical?) means to acheeve thier goals is impossible? Why would the sport of freediving be the exeption to the rule? Because of the romantic Big Blue aura that it carries for so long? Top athleets are narcistic and egoistic to some extent (almost) by definition so it would be more than reasonable to expect that the methods they are using are not always in sync with accepted ethical norms. So, yes my answers would be like that of Eric Fattah.
Miha

(but as Winnie the Pooh would maybe say: the fact that there is doping in sports and there always will be should not bother big spirits....

 

[Mullins]

I think what is considered taboo is not the discussion of cheating in general, but specific accusations made publicly and without evidence. It's fine to have concerns and doubts about performances but those should be addressed to the governing body whose job it is to investigate properly.

The idea of doping in freediving is a bit laughable from where I stand. The current world records are still so easily beatable through training and legitimate innovation, the athletes have so little money to spend on drugs and there is so little to be gained financially from success that it just doesn't make sense to dope. Yet.

 

[jay cluskey]

my point exactly dave
the topic of cheating is not a taboo at all.
accusations when unfounded dont make a happy atmosphere.

 

[Newbie_spearo]

I'm curious to know what sort of doping you may be talking about, however I don't think it would be responsible to be putting it up here on the forum. However after having read this I can think of one or 2 ways in which a freediver could use a specific drug, or doping technique to aid them in either recovery or their breath hold/oxygen consumption during a dive. The other thing to consider is how safe these methods would be with the sport of apnea. With out testing them to see what the side effects/consequences are it seems a little risky? And who is going to perform the tests/studies for everyone to read, again no responsible party?

 

[Mullins]

You're right, I don't think drugs cheats would be interested in publishing their findings.

"so yeah, I was just trying out some EPO and I found I got the occasional stroke after my CWT dives. Just thought everybody should be aware, y'know? But I don't use it in competition of course...."

From AIDA's point of view and that of its clean athletes (i.e. all of them, as far as I'm aware), there's no need to test the safety of performance enhancing drugs. Safe or not, we don't want them in the sport regardless.

 

[trux]

It's fine to have concerns and doubts about performances but those should be addressed to the governing body whose job it is to investigate properly.

And here we come to the clue of the problem, I am afraid. I may be wrong, but from what I see and hear, I have the feeling the governing body does not care at all. The responses to concerns about cheating and doping are always the same - the current set of rules and the measures are sufficient.

If they really cared, we would have since a long time a list of forbidden substances much better adapted for freediving, instead of just using the stupid WADA tests which are more or useless for us. If they cared, we'd see random doping controls. If they cared, we'd see stricter equipment checks, and medical controls. I think the main problem is that there is no motivation on the side of the executive body - they are all volunteers, and fighting with doping and cheating is uncomfortable, and costly in terms of time and money too. It is simply too much work, so it looks like they prefer pretending it does not exist.

So although we have couple of really big names on the disciplinary commission, including the best experts in freediving physiology, we have to see yet any input from them as for anti-doping controls and measures go.

And unfortunately, I have to agree with Walrus that all this discussions and blind accusations of doping or cheating will lead to an avalanche of doping and cheating on lower levels, regardless if they are true or not. The avalanche can be only stopped by strong anti-doping and anti-cheating measures before it takes on the critical mass and gets out of control. Unfortunately, I do not have the feeling, our AIDA executives see the emergency.

 

[hudasmt]

Just an idiotic question for i still havent taken any course, Do you know people who use doping also to achieve freediving courses? Or do instructors test their students for doping?
Maybe a weird questions for you guys but i'm absolutely clueless.

Cheers

Elvis

 

[Mullins]

That would be a bit like keeping an anti-aircraft gun by your bed in case of mosquitos. Enormous overkill for a personal problem nobody else cares about and likely to cause injury - but perhaps weirdly satisfying, for some.

 

[Jorg]

My point of asking these questions was not to get names of people who are being accused of using doping or cheating! My point is to get an idea about what people THINK!

I'm just wondering what kind of vision there is in regards to cheating and doping in freediving.

For the rest I completely agree with some of your opinions here, especially with Trux. The doping part has been addressed many times at AIDA International, but nothing ever really came from it. I think it's all just a waste of money and resources if we continue with the current anti-doping plan.

All in all, here are my own answers of what I THINK and in a few cases know due to first hand and second hand accounts.

1 Y
2 Y
3 Y
4 Y
5 Y
6 N
7 N

 

[Mullins]

Why the 'Y' answers Jorg - because you think it's likely given the current circumstances, or because you know of specific cases? Sorry we kind of derailed there.

ps if people are doping then they're doing a piss-poor job of it. Doping should yield huge results.

 

[Jorg]

Both reasons. But don't expect me to say names.

piss-poor job can of course be done to draw too much attention. You see what happens to Mifsud with his static where he makes a big jump. If somebody does 300 meters tomorrow... they get the same acquisitions.

 

[rxcnc2]

Cheating is hard to do in practice (like pulling on the rope during CWT, or breathing through your mask in static).

Doping is easier - I consider also O2 breathing as doping. I don't agree with the arguments that it's expensive to dope and that it doesn't pay off. As already mentioned in another highly popular thread, freedivers like all humans have egos and some of them also earn their living from freediving. The fact that Dave has to pay his airfares and judges is admirable but is not true for all.



Further, I have a problem in defining exactly what gives an athlete an advantage over another... doping is only one aspect. Many others things considered perfectly legitimate play a bigger role, and are often forgotten. Therefore, in general in sports I am only mildly impressed by number of medals and records as true expression of the superiority of one athlete over the others.

 

[jay cluskey]

Just an idiotic question for i still havent taken any course, Do you know people who use doping also to achieve freediving courses? Or do instructors test their students for doping?
Maybe a weird questions for you guys but i'm absolutely clueless.

Cheers

Elvis

thing is with that mate if you try and wing it on a course and you get away with it then good luck to ya .:naughty
when you get into trouble in the water and you have just lost a friend because you blagged that bit of safety dont blame the guy who took the course!:rcard
if you know some one is cheating tell some one else about it before the cheat encourages other people to cheat
then we will all be in the sh£t

 

[DivingDane]

unfortunately i would agree with Eric and Jorg, not for any specific information but more because doping is a particularly easy way to get results without having to train as hard. unfortunately i think it is a reality which i really wish didnt exist.

what i am a little curoius about is that in an earlier post Jorg you say you know these answers from first hand experiences, have you enlightened AIDA about this person or persons so that something can be done about it? i know personally i would, yes that may be considered a taddle tail but i DONT want doping and cheating to become common place in our sport to the extent that honest hard working athletes can no longer compete and i will happily do what ever is in my power to prevent this issue from becoming main stream.

DD