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Freediving myth #1 The dive response

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cebaztian

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2003
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Freediving myth #1
The dive response does not exist, aqautic ape theory is a romantic myth.

Yes the aquatic ape theory sounds good with its talk about our adaptations to breath hold - problem is - it is not true. The arguments consists of a little mish mash of everything that supports the theory, but taking in the full picture then another story emerges.

We are land animals - we like breathing. Our instincts implanted in the autonomic sympathetic nerve system (fight and fligth system) knows this. When we stop breathing, alarm bells start to go off and soon an emergency system starts to operate. Some like to call these reactions "The dive response".
Unfortunately there is no such thing. The correct term is "general adaptation syndrome", and its not pretty. It is a general response to stress that all organism display when living conditions deteriorate (such no access to oxygen).

The "general adaptation syndrome" consists of:
The liver releases glucose.
Stress hormone release (that among others) promote fat/protein conversion to sugar.
Metabolism increases.
Heart rate and blood pressure rises.
The muscles tense.

If you would check the cortisol levels of the blood (or urine) in association to a maximum dive they would probably be sky high. Cortisol is a stress marker.

In a competition, having announced above your PB, Just by thinking of that long horrible dive in front of you will probably start these responses.

And also in any situation of stress the following happens:
Digestion slows down (Saliva dry up).
Endorphins are secreted (feels like euphoria).
Surface blood vessels constrict.

And the romantic freediver might think that this last phenomena is to cause bloodshift to make you able to dive deeper.
Nope, the reason of vasoconstriction is to stop possible bleeding in case of injury.

So why do we get a bloodshift? To help you swim below RV? No.

Take any system made up of hoses and a pump and immerse it into water and the pressure will affect it. Pumping will be harder/slower and not have the strength to reach the periphery. Simple mechanics, nothing biological.

Ever wondered why we have those staring eyes when we come up. Dilated pupils is part of the general adaptation syndrome. Stress, pure and simple. Happens on land in a stress situation as well.

None of all these responses has anything to do with your belief that your ancestor had the habit of diving below RV to look for food. Why would you chase after fish at depths below 30 when crabs, muscles, seaweed can be found at depths were you hardly have to equalize. And in those days there were plenty of it. Why even submerge? Wait for the tide to pull back and there it is - no need to dive.

And anyhow, why chill yourself down and enter a medium where you can not see or breath. There was no masks in those days. Why even go to the beach when the jungle was full of fruit easily to pick and eat.

But... but the dive response, isn´t it designed to save oxygen, shaped by our ancestor "the snorkeling apes" on the east coast of the African peninsula, you may ask?

Of course we consume less oxygen during breath hold, because there is less available.

You actually consume more during the initial stages of Apnea. Scientist had to drive subjects to the verge of BO to see "an oxygen consumption effect". And by the way, the O2 saving was only proven on land, on a bicycle. At depth, under the very un-natural stress of pressure, we probably consume more.

But, look some might say, the overall spending is less. Of course it is, if you give a child one cookie, he can never eat more than one cookie. Stop breathing and your O2 supply is less. So off course you spend less.

Less O2 spending also comes from anaerobic metabolism, but that was evolved when were on land, hunting after game, most presumably. No dive response.

If you still think the Aquatic ape theory is true because we have no body hair. What about diving Otters full of hair? Land living rhinos with no hair? And some humans that actually are full of body hair?

If you still think the Aquatic ape theory is true because heart rate drops on face immersion in cold water. Dream on - Heart rate slows down because of the temperature change, not the water.

Bottom line is:
It is extremely stressful and unhealthy to hold your breath for long periods under water. And there is no such thing as the dive response.

Sebastian
 
Freediving myth #1
The dive response does not exist,
Yes, that's exact. The "diving response" in fact originates in the Pleistocene, when the volcanism was quite common, and so our ancestors had to hold their breath frequently because the sulphur gases were simply stinking too much. So it should not be called "diving response" but "stinking response". There is a simple proof of this theory - just visit a public toilet and you will intuitively hold your breath. There is a scientific study measuring the HR and oxygen consumption on public toilets, and it was clearly proven the response is much stronger than at freediving contests.
 
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I dunno. When I first read about the 'aquatic ape' theory i found it really irritating.
But as I read more I began to understand why. First - as a scientific theory it was clearly based on convenience, second; reading about it was a colossal waste of time. Then I realized I could have fun adding outrageous comments and satirical hypothesese.
 
Trux, have you tried to breath through your mouth only when in a public toilet?
 
Vulcanism... is that related to Volcanism? - which I believe is related to reverse hydro-colonic propulsion - a phenomenon - actually a skill that is well documented in these forums. Are you asserting that early aquatic apes modeled their behavior on volcanoes? Seem reasonable.

Here below I include a quote from an irrefutable scientifical source - not only refuting Cebaztian's cynical dismissal of this absolutely proven fact, but proving once and for all and beyond any doubt...probly..some other things too!

I think you guys are close - and maybe even right about something - but you are overlooking the possibility of squid like - reverse hydro-jet propulsion. Since the feet first swimming position allows for the possibility of packing water via the anus we have the almost certainty that our ancestors were capable of tremendous emergency bursts of speed via sudden expulsion of anally retained water stored in the colon - the power of which would doubtless be amplified by the compressible gases in the abdomen. The sudden changes in direction and explosive speed thus enabled would have obvious utility for hunting and evading predators but moreover, when combined with the spontaneous bodily muscle contraction of the photic sneeze (which, being photic, must occur near the surface) it follows logically that our ancestors could not only breach - but probably capture low flying birds via instantaneous photic-sneeze-enhanced-anal/colonic-hydro-propulsion.
QED
 
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Bottom line is:
It is extremely stressful and unhealthy to hold your breath for long periods under water. And there is no such thing as the dive response.

Sebastian

So, this is your resignation letter to the sport of freediving, mr 65m CNF? - LOL
 
Provoking article Sebastian :)
Makes one think, and that is good, for what we don't use get's less useful over time :)
 
This is fascinating, especially as I have made a very similar observation in my own training recently. Suunto have been working on a heart rate monitor that is rated to 200m, and sent me a prototype at the start of the year. When I compared the HR profile from a maximum CNF dive it was almost exactly identical to my HR profile when I laid in bed visualising the dive for the same duration.
Also in both cases during the ascent (or the visualised ascent) my heart developed a brief arrhythmia, during which it completely stopped beating for a period of 4.7 seconds. I thought this was an anomaly, but it has been replicated twice (4.7" was the longest).
 
You make it sound like your heart stopping is a good thing Will. Is this the next big step required for CW and cwnf learning to stop your heart for a while. I'm sure suunto will have an alarm for it shortly. Beep mouthfil, beep stop heart and glide....
 
Very interesting! Not surprising, but very interesting. :)


This is fascinating, especially as I have made a very similar observation in my own training recently. Suunto have been working on a heart rate monitor that is rated to 200m, and sent me a prototype at the start of the year. When I compared the HR profile from a maximum CNF dive it was almost exactly identical to my HR profile when I laid in bed visualising the dive for the same duration.
Also in both cases during the ascent (or the visualised ascent) my heart developed a brief arrhythmia, during which it completely stopped beating for a period of 4.7 seconds. I thought this was an anomaly, but it has been replicated twice (4.7" was the longest).
 
It's basically the same principal but with defined origin and name, thank you sebastian

Cortisol is high in many kind of physical activities, and bet the dive response of mamals is pretty similar (or it realy is) a strees response

Pragmatical result of this, is that basic training, or the base of the pyramid scheme in apnea workouts, should consist more of a kind of trainin like the co2 tables or anything that involves lot's of short period apneas with short recovery otherwise we risk burnout both physical and mental wich is very common in max statics
 
by the way your theory in o2 consumption during the dive is great and mindblowing thank you again ;)
 
I remember Seb Murat would never call it a dive response but a survival response.
 
Sebastian et al do you have any proper research to back these claims up? To me this sounds completely outlandish - is the AIDA Education Commission going to update their courses with this new information? But then again, it is on a forum so it must be true...
 
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This is fascinating, especially as I have made a very similar observation in my own training recently. Suunto have been working on a heart rate monitor that is rated to 200m, and sent me a prototype at the start of the year. When I compared the HR profile from a maximum CNF dive it was almost exactly identical to my HR profile when I laid in bed visualising the dive for the same duration.
Also in both cases during the ascent (or the visualised ascent) my heart developed a brief arrhythmia, during which it completely stopped beating for a period of 4.7 seconds. I thought this was an anomaly, but it has been replicated twice (4.7" was the longest).

Ahh the beat beat glide rythmn. Will do you think it is more efficient than continuous beating :)
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