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Freediving Reloaded - Thoughts on Paul's article
- Thread startersamdive
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
what's missing?
a) A buddy
b) A proper instructor/coach
c) Fitness training outside of the water
d) Static training
e) most importantly - Enjoyment????? too much focus on performance and not enough on hey - are you actually getting anything out of this apart from numbers????
I am tempted to send Deepest Bear over to help with D and E, his specialties - he is pretty useless at A and B and will have the opposite effect on C
Sam
a) A buddy
b) A proper instructor/coach
c) Fitness training outside of the water
d) Static training
e) most importantly - Enjoyment????? too much focus on performance and not enough on hey - are you actually getting anything out of this apart from numbers????
I am tempted to send Deepest Bear over to help with D and E, his specialties - he is pretty useless at A and B and will have the opposite effect on C
Sam
Paul Kotik said:
Seeing as it appears that you're headed for the ocean, could you possibly be referring to equalization? That's a good trick to know...In a 2m pool it might not have become obvious yet...
What is also not obvious is that you need a mask, not goggles, to dive deep. But if I remember correctly you got your self already covered there.
Last edited:
H
haaico
Guest
Hi Paul,
As you I am trying to up the level of Hemoglobine in my blood. Just out of curiosity may I ask how you realise that without using iron pills? Do you use a special diet or just eat healthy.
I am also curious why middle-aged people should avoid iron intake. And what age group would be middle-aged (damn, am I getting old....).
Best regards,
Haico
As you I am trying to up the level of Hemoglobine in my blood. Just out of curiosity may I ask how you realise that without using iron pills? Do you use a special diet or just eat healthy.
I am also curious why middle-aged people should avoid iron intake. And what age group would be middle-aged (damn, am I getting old....).
Best regards,
Haico
Dear Haico,
Please bear in mind that I am NOT a doctor ! However, my understanding is that as one grows older, an excess of iron consumption is increasingly burdensome to the liver. Furthermore, patients with certain types of anemia ( for example, the genetic variety with which my wife is afflicted) can be severely harmed by consuming an excess of Iron, and are required to limit their intake.
My own personal experience is that there is no need to consume iron supplements or entire beef livers in order to maximize red count, hemoglobin and hematocrit. I've had reasonably high numbers (16.9 hemoglobin, 48% crit) in my late 40's when I was going through a vegetarian phase ( temporary insanity). It seems to me that stressing the body's oxygen transport system is the best way to get it to adapt, such as by producing more red cells, more hemoglobin, etc. and etc.
But again, I am not a doctor and not even a physiologist. I suspect the vast majority of doctors cannot be very helpful on this subject. If I become curious about how to maximize these numbers in myself, I will consult Martin Stepanek ( a sports physiologist educated - EDUCATED- in a Czech university) or Eric Fattah ( all -around Mr. Encyclopaedia). Both are current or former world record holders, both are masters of the specialized theoretical knowledge that bears upon this matter is it concerns freedivers, and both are very articulate fellows who express their thoughts well.
By the way, you have nudged this thread a few millimeters closer to the discovery of a huge flaw in Paul's freediver rehabilitation program. Hint: stressing a physiological system or an anatomical structure tends to yield a return after recovery in the form of greater strength or vigor than was previously there. . . . Paul is overlooking a basic, elementary method of stressing the very components you have asked about.
Please bear in mind that I am NOT a doctor ! However, my understanding is that as one grows older, an excess of iron consumption is increasingly burdensome to the liver. Furthermore, patients with certain types of anemia ( for example, the genetic variety with which my wife is afflicted) can be severely harmed by consuming an excess of Iron, and are required to limit their intake.
My own personal experience is that there is no need to consume iron supplements or entire beef livers in order to maximize red count, hemoglobin and hematocrit. I've had reasonably high numbers (16.9 hemoglobin, 48% crit) in my late 40's when I was going through a vegetarian phase ( temporary insanity). It seems to me that stressing the body's oxygen transport system is the best way to get it to adapt, such as by producing more red cells, more hemoglobin, etc. and etc.
But again, I am not a doctor and not even a physiologist. I suspect the vast majority of doctors cannot be very helpful on this subject. If I become curious about how to maximize these numbers in myself, I will consult Martin Stepanek ( a sports physiologist educated - EDUCATED- in a Czech university) or Eric Fattah ( all -around Mr. Encyclopaedia). Both are current or former world record holders, both are masters of the specialized theoretical knowledge that bears upon this matter is it concerns freedivers, and both are very articulate fellows who express their thoughts well.
By the way, you have nudged this thread a few millimeters closer to the discovery of a huge flaw in Paul's freediver rehabilitation program. Hint: stressing a physiological system or an anatomical structure tends to yield a return after recovery in the form of greater strength or vigor than was previously there. . . . Paul is overlooking a basic, elementary method of stressing the very components you have asked about.
I am not far from newbie-hood and I just wanted to say, Mr.Kotik's articles on being a freediving newbie annoy me. Their context is very sly and demeaning; I can't think on them too long or it depletes my enthusiasm, which seems to be so highly valued (it's all a newbie has, isn't it?). Sorry, I never wanted to sound negative on this board, as networking is still my number one priority..
Paul Kotik said:
Very interesting paradox !
I f you swim head down, it means that you produce a force directed downwards... ; this force fights again your positive buoyancy in order to establish balance... ; if you add to your neck a weight equivalent to this downwards force, then you no longer need to produce a downwards component... you will be neutral and produce a purely horizontal force... you will be horizontal...
interesting... could you give some precisions ?DeepThought said:
I have never noticed that during my apneas...
iceselkie said:
I am afraid I am a bit lost in this thread... I do not understand the subject ; what is it all about ?
I haven't even understood what is "Pail's article" ... I tried my best to read some posts by Paul Kotif, but I understood nothing...
Could somebody be charitable enough to give me the gist of this whole discussion ?
subaquaticus said:
http://www.deeperblue.net/article.php/651/17
check it out.. read them, there are three... that's what this is all about.. Paul's reentry into freediving after some time.
good articles, worth reading.
I found Paul's articles thought-provoking and entertaining. I'm not newb though.
Just the cummilative expirience of a few people on these forums. I've seen (on the same threads as you I suppose) that some poeple said they prefered aiming for slightly positive at the begning as they'll lose volume during the dynamic.
Maybe one needs to get the prefect balance and be able to do a long dynamic to notice that.
Nope.subaquaticus said:
Just the cummilative expirience of a few people on these forums. I've seen (on the same threads as you I suppose) that some poeple said they prefered aiming for slightly positive at the begning as they'll lose volume during the dynamic.
Maybe one needs to get the prefect balance and be able to do a long dynamic to notice that.
Iceselkie, perhaps if the Re-Newbie articles annoy you, it would be best to simply steer clear of them and of this forum thread. Yours, incidentally, is the only negative response I've had. My mail, public and private, has been overwhelmingly positive, from both beginners and experienced instructors.
I don't understand at all what you mean here by 'sly'. Truly I don't. I report on what I experience as I try to make a comeback as a freediver. True, I had decades of experience before I had to be sidelined for a year; what is amazing to me is how much one can forget. Not so much in the brain as in the body: mine doesn't any longer know what to do by itself. What used to be automatic is now slow, bumbling or not done at all. I know everything - somewhere in the head with all the empty beer cans and chewing gum wrappers, but digging it out and applying it is like a new student trying to apply yesterday's classroom instruction in the open ocean. You should see me trying to put on my gear: I used to be able to do it in a minute on the deck of a boat tossing in an ocean storm; now I stare at each piece of gear for a few seconds trying to remember what it does and where it goes.
The feedback I'm getting is that my difficulties remind newbies of their own, and remind instructors of those things they tend to overlook or imagine are obvious to newbies when in fact, they are not.
Nobody's come up, though, with the answer to my question about the huge component missing from my training 'program' so far. In order to avoid any further sense I'm being sly, I shall hereby disclose what it is: STATIC APNEA DRILL.
It all begins with holding one's breath. Instructors use rules of thumb to calculate an estimate of a new diver's depth potential from the new diver's static apnea performance in the pool: there is a tight relationship. Training this simple thing, apnea, is the most basic of all freediving skill building.
I started doing drills, lying in my bed. I'm using an Aharon Solomons table: I start with a 2:00 hold, then 2 min. breath-up, then 2:15 hold, etc. increasing the holds by 15 seconds each time with 2 minutes' breathing between holds.After doing th 3 min. hold, the table calls for 4 4-minute holds with 2 min. breathe-ups between holds. Sad to say, I've not even attained the first 4 min. hold in the 3 sessions I've done. Got to 3:45, then called it quits. Lo, how the mighty have fallen ! However, I feel improvement each time, as little things come back to me. The blood shunt is something I used to feel very powerfully ( as a numbing of the legs) but now have to kind of drift through a series of mental states as I hold my breath, trying to find that state of mind when I begin to feel that shwoooooooop of my legs deflating like balloons and going slightly numb, accompanied by a feeling of great comfort and a sharp diminishing of the urge to breathe.
When this response becomes sharp and automatic again, I'm certain I'll ccomplete the Solomons table with ease and move to the next level table. I'll be focussed, too, on how to describe what it is I do to facilitate the blood shunt ( and accompanying bradycardia: I use a heart rate monitor in these sessions, and it is crystal clear that my early sensations of bllod shunt are directly related to a decrease in heart rate)in a way that is useful to beginners, and to instructors training beginners.
I can tell you one thing at this point about static apnea drills: I don't like doing them ! It is very uncomfortable. I sweat like a pig. Until I get over this blood shunt/bradycardia hurdle, I'll probably 'forget' to do the drills, or approach them in a forced state, which virtually assures an uncomfortable and unsatisfying result.
One key phrase that I remember a great instructor using was ".....learning to positively anticipate that first urge to breathe, to learn to welcome it rather than fear it." I think this was the key to a big boost in my own performance back then.
I'll try to put it to use again, and report back soon.
I don't understand at all what you mean here by 'sly'. Truly I don't. I report on what I experience as I try to make a comeback as a freediver. True, I had decades of experience before I had to be sidelined for a year; what is amazing to me is how much one can forget. Not so much in the brain as in the body: mine doesn't any longer know what to do by itself. What used to be automatic is now slow, bumbling or not done at all. I know everything - somewhere in the head with all the empty beer cans and chewing gum wrappers, but digging it out and applying it is like a new student trying to apply yesterday's classroom instruction in the open ocean. You should see me trying to put on my gear: I used to be able to do it in a minute on the deck of a boat tossing in an ocean storm; now I stare at each piece of gear for a few seconds trying to remember what it does and where it goes.
The feedback I'm getting is that my difficulties remind newbies of their own, and remind instructors of those things they tend to overlook or imagine are obvious to newbies when in fact, they are not.
Nobody's come up, though, with the answer to my question about the huge component missing from my training 'program' so far. In order to avoid any further sense I'm being sly, I shall hereby disclose what it is: STATIC APNEA DRILL.
It all begins with holding one's breath. Instructors use rules of thumb to calculate an estimate of a new diver's depth potential from the new diver's static apnea performance in the pool: there is a tight relationship. Training this simple thing, apnea, is the most basic of all freediving skill building.
I started doing drills, lying in my bed. I'm using an Aharon Solomons table: I start with a 2:00 hold, then 2 min. breath-up, then 2:15 hold, etc. increasing the holds by 15 seconds each time with 2 minutes' breathing between holds.After doing th 3 min. hold, the table calls for 4 4-minute holds with 2 min. breathe-ups between holds. Sad to say, I've not even attained the first 4 min. hold in the 3 sessions I've done. Got to 3:45, then called it quits. Lo, how the mighty have fallen ! However, I feel improvement each time, as little things come back to me. The blood shunt is something I used to feel very powerfully ( as a numbing of the legs) but now have to kind of drift through a series of mental states as I hold my breath, trying to find that state of mind when I begin to feel that shwoooooooop of my legs deflating like balloons and going slightly numb, accompanied by a feeling of great comfort and a sharp diminishing of the urge to breathe.
When this response becomes sharp and automatic again, I'm certain I'll ccomplete the Solomons table with ease and move to the next level table. I'll be focussed, too, on how to describe what it is I do to facilitate the blood shunt ( and accompanying bradycardia: I use a heart rate monitor in these sessions, and it is crystal clear that my early sensations of bllod shunt are directly related to a decrease in heart rate)in a way that is useful to beginners, and to instructors training beginners.
I can tell you one thing at this point about static apnea drills: I don't like doing them ! It is very uncomfortable. I sweat like a pig. Until I get over this blood shunt/bradycardia hurdle, I'll probably 'forget' to do the drills, or approach them in a forced state, which virtually assures an uncomfortable and unsatisfying result.
One key phrase that I remember a great instructor using was ".....learning to positively anticipate that first urge to breathe, to learn to welcome it rather than fear it." I think this was the key to a big boost in my own performance back then.
I'll try to put it to use again, and report back soon.
iceselkie said:
iceselkie, just interested to know what is demeaning about PK's articles? He is a talented writer with an amusing insight. Why does it deplete your enthusiasm... if anything it has increased mine..
Sorry Paul, I am not insulting you directly.
I just felt that the tone of these articles was "demeaning" to newbies. Maybe not everyone who is new at freediving needs to be lumped into the category that you described yourself as being in "now". I didn't want to sound oversensitive, as I agree, your acticles are most likely appealing to the general pop. However, I also believe there might be an unspoken pop that I represent, in speaking, who don't know enough or feel they have enough presence in this arena TO speak. The newbie who has not yet HAD a chance to achieve what you have achieved before regressing as you say you have. Perhaps not all of us like to be represented in such a manner? It's true while you have connections that can help you return to your former glory, many of us are still struggling to make those connections. What you said right off the bat when you made the parallel of freediving to windsurfing, that is true. When you concluded at the end of the article that it was YOU who trained the monofinners who took you under their wing- THAT was what seemed sly. Perhaps it is still not clear to me what your motives truly are/were to become a "newbie" again. See it this way- I have not been practicing algebra very long but at one point I was quite proficient in it. Would it seem good of me to go back to Grade 6, saying I need to start with the basics and then showing up the whole class by throwing out questions I already knew the answers to, thereby "progressing" at a faster rate and say that I was teaching the teacher to be a better teacher and teaching the students to be better students by demonstration? I really liked what Sam said though as a response to you and you really might be benefitting the more experienced, however, i just think more newbies might be a bit put off by your context.
I just felt that the tone of these articles was "demeaning" to newbies. Maybe not everyone who is new at freediving needs to be lumped into the category that you described yourself as being in "now". I didn't want to sound oversensitive, as I agree, your acticles are most likely appealing to the general pop. However, I also believe there might be an unspoken pop that I represent, in speaking, who don't know enough or feel they have enough presence in this arena TO speak. The newbie who has not yet HAD a chance to achieve what you have achieved before regressing as you say you have. Perhaps not all of us like to be represented in such a manner? It's true while you have connections that can help you return to your former glory, many of us are still struggling to make those connections. What you said right off the bat when you made the parallel of freediving to windsurfing, that is true. When you concluded at the end of the article that it was YOU who trained the monofinners who took you under their wing- THAT was what seemed sly. Perhaps it is still not clear to me what your motives truly are/were to become a "newbie" again. See it this way- I have not been practicing algebra very long but at one point I was quite proficient in it. Would it seem good of me to go back to Grade 6, saying I need to start with the basics and then showing up the whole class by throwing out questions I already knew the answers to, thereby "progressing" at a faster rate and say that I was teaching the teacher to be a better teacher and teaching the students to be better students by demonstration? I really liked what Sam said though as a response to you and you really might be benefitting the more experienced, however, i just think more newbies might be a bit put off by your context.