Frenzel gurus...

It does sound like you are thinking about stuff too much. Have you watched this?

Doc's Diving Medicine Home Page

Look at the 55min video on the page.

You want to sit there and play around, try to empty your lungs (so as not to cheat by doing valsavla), fill your cheeks, close your epiglottis (sounds hard but just make the letter "K" the start of that sound should close the back of your throat), then pump your tongue up wards, kind of pressing the tip against the your top row of teeth and forcing up the back of it. You should see your nostrils flare at the sides (nose pinched of course) as in the video. Presto!

Please give feedback here.

If it makes you feel better it took me 6 months to get deeper than 12M! Many naturally "find" frenzel as a solution to the desire to go deeper, that was my case and is the case in 90% of spearo's i have seen.

Thomas I have exactly the same problems with you and I'm trying to resolve these issues with no success upto date...

hi,
the best way i found to describe it is to just look at yourself in the mirror while you are trying to move your adam apple up and down. don't pinch your nose and don't try to focus on the equalization; rather focus on the movement of the adam apple. when you can do it without too much mental effort, repeat the exercise while pinching your nose.
should work.
i would say 7 people out of 10 get it in the first 5 minutes they try (i have lots of guinea pigs to practice on

cheers,
linda

Hi Thomas can i ask if you do not mind are you going to learn frezel technique to be able to dive deeper easily?

All best

I'm starting to believe that very little freedivers are aware about the Frenzel...

Since my 15th I thought that I was doing Frenzel until I've read Eric Fattah's document. The step 6 is impossible for me to do it.. I have discussed this with other more experienced freedivers who never read this document and who believed that they are doing Frenzel. I have asked them to perform the 6 step and guess what... None of them succeeded.

Ask your friends if they can do that. If you find someone who can do this then you should stick on him to show you how!

I havent found anyone yet in my area...

If someone can do the step 6 I would like to hear his thoughts and how he did it....

actually i have to disagree with dimitri.
there are a lot of people that think they are not doing frenzel, while in fact they do.
sometimes too much thinking is just confusing people.
if you can equalize while holding a hand on your belly and you feel no movement of the abs or diaphragm, and you see your adam apple moving up and down, you are 100% doing frenzel.
it's really that simple

then it is also true that some people do frenzel when dry, but when head down, especially below 15/20 meters they start pushing from the belly and switch to valsalva. some are actually keeping doing frenzel, but feel the urge to contract the diaphragm at the same time, so it looks like they are doing valsalva, while in fact they are doing a "forceful" frenzel (which is quite uselss and a waste of energy.

btw, a few months ago i translated into english a book about equalization for freediving, where you can find a lot of tips and ideas about different ways to learn frenzel. it's on the market already and you can find it on federico mana website, and soon at Freedive Dahab shop



hope this helps.
linda

I'm reading this one these days Linda. Great book!!

It is very confusing the frenzel stuff cause I can equalize with no movement of the abs or diaphragm but I cannot do it after a forcefull exhale in which case frenzel claims that I could even with a forcefull exhale and mouthfill of the remaining air.

Or even after forcefull exhale, sucking up the diaphragm and equalize. I cant...

it is not surprising that you can't equalize on empty lungs by sucking up the diaphragm, since there's not air to be sucked up.

but it is strange that you can't equalize with normal frenzel on empty lungs. might be that the extreme exhalation is creating some vacuum around your throat/mouth/epiglottis and that you can't move your tongue properly.
what happens if after the forceful exhale you suck a little bit of air (from outside) with your lips? can you equalize?
and what happens if you exhale a little bit less? can you equalize?

linda

Hi Thomas

Well I asked my question bcos frenzel is been used for more advanced level of Freediving specially when u do it mouthfill... That's when u reach ur failure depth(residual volume of ur lungs is reached). For the time being it is better if u concentrate on relaxation and try to get red of ur problems with equalization and for not making u down our instructor had problem with his equalization same as one of my colleges they even couldn't go more than 2 meters at the beginning but it came day by day... Try to avoid things like dairy products and Sor products except lemon which increase production of mucus in the sinus add to this cleaning ur sinus with pure salt mixed with water...

Frenzel without mouthfill is easy to achieve if u manage to push air in ur nose using backside of ur tongue and "koh" sound should b heard in the nose...

Wish u achieve Ur goal safely and never dive alone
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Linda,

Thanks for your last. The book that you have translated is a great tool for those who are looking for answers.. For those who are not sure about what they are doing and it is a great tool to give answers on every inquiry or inability of equalization. I have read it carefully and made all the dry exercices during weekend. Apparently I have discovered that I was actually doing Frenzel and not Valsalva as I thought...

Yes I can equalize if I fully exhale, suck up diaphragm, fill my cheeks by sucking some air from outside with my mouth, and do very nice repeated equalizations with T-lock.

The book is THE BOOK. I came to the conclusion after reading this that most people dont know what they are doing and they might do a Frenzel rather than a valsalva or the oppossite. It is a great piece of knowledge and helps to find out what exactly you are doing and helps many others.

I have even managed to do the reverse trick with the balloon many times and I think I am now almost can pack through my nose! Not yet sure about that but I get the pumping feeling.

Balloon exercises and a mirror helped me to find out and separate different muscles feeling. What I suggest is what is helped me so much after spending my whole weekend reading reading reading practicing practicing etc...

Go to a mirror in a very good luminated room so that you can see your soft palate and the whole mouth cavity.

Take a deep breath and hold it by closing the glottis.

Open your mouth in a relax state (do NOT stretched it) and hang your tongue outside so that the tongue does not touch your soft palate in a relaxed state too. Stay like that relaxed close your nostrils with your fingers and try to move your soft palate only up and down without releasing air from your lungs. Keep your glottis closed. Your mouth relaxed open and your tongue relaxed sticked outside hanging.

If you cannot move the soft palate without releasing air try again. It took me about 15mins to move the soft palate indepedently with an open mouth. When you move the soft palate you will feel a sucking sound while closing and oppening.

Practice practice practice...its fun! Most important is to have visual contact with your soft pallette and mouth cavity so go to a very well luminated mirror.

After that do the following,

The Fattah step 6 is easy to achieved if you use a balloon instead of your cheeks. Because the air you have in your cheeks is too little to feel it when it reversed to your nostrils its better to use a bigger quantity of air i.e. a balloon.

Practice like this for hours and you will get it.

- Fill a balloon with air and size it like a football and hold it with your fingers not to deflate.

- Make a forcefull exhale and close the glottis.

- Put the balloon in your mouth and release your fingers. Now your cheeks should be full of air from the balloon and feeling like burstring. Do not open your glottis.

- Now try to move the thing you were moving with the previous exercise in the mirror. Start over again. Again and again. Its a matter of time.

When you succeeded you will fill the balloon deflating and the air will go out through your nose making a funny sound and slightly burning your nostrils. To be sure that the air is passing through your nose place a small mirror in front of your nostrils to see the glass fogging.

After that your may do the same without balloon like the Fattah document again with a mirror in your nostril to see if its fogging with the little air expaled from your cheeks only.

This way you will be sure that you can indepedantly move your soft palette from your glottis and now I am very sure that I was doing Frenzel using always the T lock and pushing the air up rather than the K lock which is not so efficient. Buy the book and read it. Its worth every penne!!!

Because air is invisible you can try these exercises in the water to be more sure or even filling the balloon with cigarette smoke for those who are smoking! So the smoke will go out from your nose rather than the fogging mirror thing.

Its just one of my unhealthy idea and not Federico's.

I am now fully aware of what I am doing. Knowledge is usefull. I like to know "why" and "how" I'm doing something in depth instead of doing something without know how. Indeed most of the freedivers dont know what they are doing. They just equalize so they feel no need to know how.

Hope the aforementioned helps.

Dimitris

wow, that was a good review
i bet federico will be happy (i am!)

good to know we saved at least one lost soul

linda

You do Linda, trust me!!!

All the best, dive safe!

Teaching Frenzel in a new way

Teaching frenzel (Fattah document style) to others with the same problems as many describe here we are now testing a new way of teaching frenzel.

simply said:
- forget the tongue block, forget the piston (step 4 and 5)
- only fill the mouth, close the epiglottis, soft palate neutral and ONLY use the cheeks

It looks like step 6 (independent epiglottis and soft palate control) is much easier to master this way.
2 friends learned it that way very easy and we test it now on new students.

Anybody else who tried learning frenzel this way?

BTW: Did others already try out Herbert Nitschs EQEX thing (even when it feels kind of cheating)?
Some interesting insights i got from it and its good training for keeping the epiglottis closed.
Also if you try it you will understand why he says that he wonders that others are not as good as he is.