Frenzel gurus...

[JennyWren]

Does anyone else find Eric's document almost TOO detailed? I learned Frenzel by just kinda understanding what I wanted to do on a very basic level and then figuring out how to do it myself, rather than reading step by step exercises. I needed to be able to get air pulled up from my lungs to my mouth, without losing the air already in my mouth. Then I needed to use that air to equalise, again without losing the air in my mouth back to my lungs.

I think if I'd tried to learn from Eric's doc I would have gotten horribly confused - but it is probably a good way to go about it for those who cannot get it otherwise?

 

[AJB8]

I busted my skull trying to learn the Frenzel technique. I could close my epiglottis and move my larynx up and down, but not fill my nose with air (soft palette problem I guessed). So I thought I'd come back to it later and continue using valsalva.

I've just come back to it and realised that, for a while at least, I've been doing the Frenzel. In fact, it took me a few minutes to do a proper valsalva. My advice is, if you're having trouble after having a good go at it and can at least to close the epiglottis properly, just forget about it and come back later.

Forcing things never helps. Just go about your business and try to take your mind off it. Your body will realise the rest on its own.

Much happier now

AJB8

 

[Sweet Tooth]

I took a PFI course in March and was incredibly frustrated at not being able to do a frenzel there. I kept working at it after I got back and finally got it on Friday last week.
The key to me anyhow was to do a "grouper call" with my tongue already in position, not try to "use my tongue as a piston" AFTER bringing air from lungs into my mouth.
The air coming into my mouth hit a wall so to speak with my tongue in position and Presto! that was it.
If this is remotely helpful to anybody out there and I can provide better information on this way of doing it please let me know.

Dean

 

[Ouvea]

hi,
the best way i found to describe it is to just look at yourself in the mirror while you are trying to move your adam apple up and down. don't pinch your nose and don't try to focus on the equalization; rather focus on the movement of the adam apple. when you can do it without too much mental effort, repeat the exercise while pinching your nose.
should work.
i would say 7 people out of 10 get it in the first 5 minutes they try (i have lots of guinea pigs to practice on

cheers,
linda

Hello:

Thank you for the suggestion. After quite a bit of frustration, I manage to get my ears to pop by doing just that. Although, my entire tongue moves with action of my throat. Is this correct or should I now concentrate or moving throat absent any movement from the tip of tongue (tongue block)?

Thank you kindly,
Ouvea

 

[trullalla]

hi ouvea,
only the back of the tongue needs to move. put yourself in front of the mirror and open you mouth while you equalize; stare at the tip of your tongue and concentrate on keeping it still. same thing for the jaw, and the cheeks, they should stay still too. basically nothing in your face should need to be moving when you frenzel.
hope that helps

linda

 

[Will]

try this:
pinch nose & keep mouth closed, while saying the letter K

can't remember who described that technique to me, but it is the most concise one I've heard

 

[Simos]

try this:
pinch nose & keep mouth closed, while saying the letter K

can't remember who described that technique to me, but it is the most concise one I've heard

Having done this I am now a bit confused and possibly near a breakthrough lol

I equalise BTV and looks like I can apply more pressure if I go for the letter K sound more aggressively, on the flip side feels like I'll be losing more air to the mask this way.

It's not a million miles from what I do but my version is softer (if that makes sense) but I start having trouble with it between 15m-20m so maybe I could switch to the harsher K sound then and see if it works...

 

[dimitris33]

For me T lock (tongue tip behind the upper front teeth and push) is the most powerfull. Try it with cheeks full.

 

[dimitris33]

In fact T with pushing up is become K, so the most powerfull is T and K together. Whole air is pushed up.

 

[Simos]

In fact T with pushing up is become K, so the most powerfull is T and K together. Whole air is pushed up.

I use the T too... But actually after having posted I remembered being taught about K before, if I remember correctly using K ensures there is actually air there for you to push up.

Anyway next time I have trouble will try the K too and report back

 

[Mullins]

The 'K' sound doesn't make any sense to me - to do Frenzel I push my glottis upwards. I don't seal my tongue against my soft palate.

Conversely, to make a K sound I seal tongue momentarily against soft palate and release. So either I speak funny or I Frenzel funny.

 

[Mullins]

Ahh, I see. If you try to generate pressure for a K sound with your epiglottis closed, you'll equalise. The K is kind of incidental though. Could be any.... what's the class of sound? Voiceless stop consonants I guess, though voiced ones would also kind of work (aside from the closed epiglottis preventing the voicing).

 

[Simos]

Ahh, I see. If you try to generate pressure for a K sound with your epiglottis closed, you'll equalise. The K is kind of incidental though. Could be any.... what's the class of sound? Voiceless stop consonants I guess, though voiced ones would also kind of work (aside from the closed epiglottis preventing the voicing).

Yes exactly, K is incidental (not that you can say a proper K with lips sealed anyway) - actually I was told to use a more 'Gh' type of sound so I thought K was something different but then realised the effect is the same..

In my case I almost fire them as a sequence (if that makes sense) - pressure for the K and right after pushing air up with glottis (with some optional additional pressure from cheeks). Still have to figure out why it fails between 15-20m though... (I think I know but need to verify when I find some depth and a buddy)

 

[Walrus]

I agree with the previous posts that most people are in fact doing frenzel without knowing it. Easily %90-%95 of spearo's and scuba divers have just naturally started doing it. Another quick test to determine if you are doing frenzel is equalise with your mouth open. If you can then it's frenzel

Cheers,
Wal

 

[gwpcasey]

This is hilarious, after years (and years) of equalising when I first started calling what I was doing freediving and reading on here and elsewhere about Frenzel, I just assumed I was doing Valsalva because Frenzel sounded so intricate and complicated.

I just read azapa's quote below and equalised easily, emptied my lungs, equalised, did a bunch of Eric's exercises from the document without any difficulty and realised I've been Frenzeling all along.

Quote: You want to sit there and play around, try to empty your lungs (so as not to cheat by doing valsavla), fill your cheeks, close your epiglottis (sounds hard but just make the letter "K" the start of that sound should close the back of your throat), then pump your tongue up wards, kind of pressing the tip against the your top row of teeth and forcing up the back of it. You should see your nostrils flare at the sides (nose pinched of course) as in the video. Presto!

So, now I just need to work on hands-free...

 

[Simos]

I agree with the previous posts that most people are in fact doing frenzel without knowing it. Easily %90-%95 of spearo's and scuba divers have just naturally started doing it. Another quick test to determine if you are doing frenzel is equalise with your mouth open. If you can then it's frenzel

Cheers,
Wal

Is that definitely true Wal? Is Frenzel the only way to equalise with the mouth open? (and by mouth open you mean the lips I take it? Ie it's ok to have a to have a tongue block)

 

[Walrus]

Hi Simos,
I had to look it up, apparently it is possible to use valsalva with the mouth open. It’s not common and I wouldn’t strictly call it valsalva anymore. This is the most common description :-

"The Valsalva maneuver is performed by attempting to forcibly exhale while keeping the mouth and nose closed."

I can do frenzel with my jaw wide open, so not just my lips. You have to be able to do this for mouthfill/frenzel otherwise you don't get enough air in. I know Dave Mullins also lowers his adam's apple to get even more volume but I haven't got that to work.

 

[Simos]

Hi Simos,
I had to look it up, apparently it is possible to use valsalva with the mouth open. It’s not common and I wouldn’t strictly call it valsalva anymore. This is the most common description :-

"The Valsalva maneuver is performed by attempting to forcibly exhale while keeping the mouth and nose closed."

I can do frenzel with my jaw wide open, so not just my lips. You have to be able to do this for mouthfill/frenzel otherwise you don't get enough air in. I know Dave Mullins also lowers his adam's apple to get even more volume but I haven't got that to work.

Valsava never worked for me Wal but I think it only has to do with how you apply the pressure (i.e. with your chest/diaphragm in Valsava), so in theory I think it should work even handsfree, with mouth-open etc i.e. same as Frenzel.

I use Frenzel (hands-free) and I always do it with my jaw open (lips closed) - I paid more attention to what I am doing yesterday when I went for a dive and I realised I also close my jaw a bit as I push air up, seems to help push more air up.

I think the Adam's apple moves a bit naturally as you Frenzel - maybe you are doing it without realising? Mine moves down when I open my jaw (lips closed) and then when I close my jaw to push air up the Adam's apple moves up too.

Anyway looks like you can equalise just fine haha ;-)

 

[Giobbi]

How do you vasalva with open mouth??

 

[Simos]

How do you vasalva with open mouth??

Depends what you mean by open mouth I guess but if you do a T-lock with your tongue I think it should work.