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Frenzel gurus...

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Will said:
try this:
pinch nose & keep mouth closed, while saying the letter K

can't remember who described that technique to me, but it is the most concise one I've heard
Click to expand...

Woah. When I read this for the first time (after months and months of trying) I *think* I am on the right path. My freediving expierience has been extremly frustrating so far, seeing my friends being able to descent easily (with Vasalva) and me being stuck at 3m, because I'm not able to equalize heads down and only with lots of efforts (and waste of oxygen) heads up.

I think I am doing (partly?) Frenzel, because my nose "blows up" (and I am a "K" sound), but only slightly and weakly, so my ears don't pop. If I put more force to it, my ears pop but my diaphragma moves as well. (practising dry, heads up, heads down it gets more difficult again...)
What am I doing wrong and how can I fix it? Real Frenzel should be really forceful without 'additional' help, right?

Mina
 
Mina,

Have you seen the Frenzel document that everyone refers to (by Eric Fattah)?

That should help, although it is more laborious and clinical than the 'K' trick you mentioned.

Perhaps try this: say 'k' with your mouth open but don't go so far as making the noise, just start to say it and leave your tongue in that position. (With your nose pinched.) If you can do that and feel the air going into your tubes (even if it's not quite 'popping' yet) that is the effect of your tongue pumping, not your diaphragm.

(The trick with saying 'k' is exactly that, it gets your tongue to pump without you realising it.)

It can be hard to disassociate your diaphragm, even if you're not doing Valsalva. So there's a chance that you'll be doing Frenzel before your diaphragm catches up. (At depth, my diaphragm tries to help, which doesn't help at all.)

As for head down... can you practice with a rope? If so, then going upside down while pulling on a rope with your eyes closed (to help you relax) could be a good place to start.

Good luck!
 
Chest should remain stable. The force is created within mouth area only as long as u have your glottis closed. Move your jaw in front a little while performing frenzel, it becomes more powerful.
 
Mina, don't worry. I have seen so many freedivers in your situation and 99.99% bust on through it with no problems. Relaxation. Sounds almost cliche when talking of freediving, and also possible to "fake". Real relaxation comes from being happy, warm, well accompanied and spending a LOT OF TIME in the water. With that, and training the technical stuff above, the depth will come. I promise.
 

Thanks for the words of encouragement. Did you have the same problems when you just started?

This thing is blocking all the fun in freediving for me and I can't even freedive until I have figured it out. I mean I can't even go down to 3 meters while other's don't have any problems until 10-30 meters with Vasalva - how come? It can't be only due to relaxation, can it?

I actually love the water and I am very relaxed when I go for dynamic or static. But as soon as I try to equalize head down, it is blocked. I tried it (dry) for hours yesterday and while I "popped" fine with my Frenzel/Vavsalva (or whatever I was doing) heads up, as soon as I tilted my head upside down there was no more popping my ears by any means (Glad no one could see me then Must have looked weird lol). I'm starting to think something might be wrong with my tubes? But then, others have the same problem. So there must be "common mistakes" and also "common fixes" for the problems?
Anyone that previously had problems (with equalizing in general, not only Frenzel) care to write down their expieriences and how they could solve it?
 
Sorry for the double post. Just seen that there were two more responses.

dimitris33 said:
Chest should remain stable. The force is created within mouth area only as long as u have your glottis closed. Move your jaw in front a little while performing frenzel, it becomes more powerful.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will try that. I suspect my glottis open (even though I told it not to!) when I try to force the air up. But not sure...

I was wondering about the neutral position of the soft plate: I can move it and feel it moving up and down but I am not sure when it is in a neutral position (yeah, I know, exhale through both nose/mouth, but I still really can't tell if it's both, since the exhale stream of air is so 'soft'). Do I have to actively keep it in a neutral position (e.g. use the muscle somehow) or do I just keep it in a kind of 'relaxed' position, touching either up/down?


Thank you! And yes, I've read the document a lot. And I'm doing all the steps, although I am not sure if I am doing them correctly, which, I think, is my problem (or everyones problem?). The "K" explanation just helped me, that I think I am on the right way, since that is what I was doing.
The air is forced to my nose and I can feel a slight pressure in my tubes... but not quite strong enough to pop my ears. When I take the diaphragma to help, it pops. What does that mean? Am I cheating and really not closing my glottis? I read Frenzel is stronger than Vasalva, so how can I make the force 'stronger'?

As for the rope, no, I don't have a chance to go down a rope. I could go to our local pool and "climb down" the wall. Maybe. The pool is 5 metres/16 feet.

----

I will probably try out all your suggestions this weekend in the pool. Will practising dry until then help or am I wasting my time?
 
Last edited:
trying *hard* for hours to equalize is not the solution. Your tubes, like any body part, will get tired, sore and will swell making it progressively harder and more frustrating to try and equalize. I personally have stopped "dry" equalization too, other than a quick test once in a while, because it only stresses things and shoves snot and mucus where it is not meant to be.

Do you have a deep pool near you, like 5m? you could try there. Have you ever had freedive training? You would be amazed what 1 hours with a good instructor can do, he/she will probably be able to sort you out in just a few sessions.
 

Thanks. I understand that trying hard for hours probably won't help much... of course I didn't mean I'd equalize all the time... I mainly tried out all the steps in the Frenzel-Fattah document. I *think* unliking the soft plate from glottis is my problem.

I did the SSI Level 1 course and went through all the theory and exersices, but didn't get down to 20m, obviously. After having problems equalizing the first day, my instructor told me not to worry about it and I'd be fine on the second. Unfortunately, it wasn't the case. But I guess you're right and I need to practise more *in* the water (which I haven't done much).

There's a 5m pool nearby and I'll be heading there this Saturday.
 
Hi Guys:

Okay, I'm finally getting the hang of this and I think I'm equalizing via Frenzel. Can anyone give me a few tips or exercises to ensure that I do not inadvertently equalize with the Vasalva method (I really want to banish that word down the Mariana Trench).

I do keep my hand on my abdomen and I don't feel any movement from the diaphragm or my abdominal muscles. Perhaps, it's just self doubt but I would rather be certain. Thanks for any assistance.

O.
 
- exhale 90%
- exhale last 10% in mouth
- close epiglotis/throat
- try to inhale, and hold the inhale feeling (but keep throat closed, should create strong vacuum feeling, not pleasant/easy).
- pinch nose gently
- equalize using frentzel...

You might however be able to use frentzel, even if this doesn't work, since this might be a difficult task. But try it.
 
Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I haven't quite found the perfect thread for my question and I'm not sure it's worth a new one as it could be very stupid!

Anyway, I'm new to freediving and I can naturally use the Frenzel method which I've taken to 30m during my courses when I started. Since I've been back home and learning soft palate control etc. I realized I can do something else to sort of make my ears pop but seemingly not in the usual Frenzel/equalizing way.

Now comes the tough part of explaining what I'm doing; it's almost as if instead of pushing up with the tongue (like in Frenzel) I'm pulling down with that area and my adam's apple and throat is moving down. It's kind of like I'm sucking the air from my e-tubes and I get the popping sound but it's definitely not creating any negative pressure which it surely should if I were taking air away from there? Come to think about it it's probably the method I somehow picked up as a kid to deal with pressure changes on planes. If I hold the movement and breathe out my nose I get that weird 'inside head' noise you get when you yawn. Is this movement or whatever it is useful in anyway for freediving or should I just forget about it? Unfortunately I don't really have any access to water, and certainly not deep water, to see what happens when I do it under pressure.

Many thanks and apologies if this isn't the place to post it!
 
This is one of my favourite threads, so no need to apologise for the resurrection.

You are, I assume, talking about hands-free stuff right?

What you are describing sounds exactly like what I do on planes: I can equalise my ears on planes without ever having to yawn, pinch my nose and blow or suck sweets or swallow. Instead, with my mouth closed I push my Adam's apple down, and my back and down (and the fleshy area under my tongue - I don't know if that has a name - moves down too). Just as you describe it, this seems to pull the various muscles and open up my tubes such that I equalise. It seems to me that I can even keep them open for a while too (5 seconds or so).

However, I have tried to use this to equalise in the water and have had absolutely no success. I'm curious to hear if others think this description matches their hands-free equalisation method or not.

Good luck!
 
I can do like I'm pulling some muscle in, on the inside of my face, and it clicks... can do it without moving tongue or apple.. on the mirror i see no movement at all... but still couldn't make it useful in the water (to be fair once i get into the water i focus and don't even try it much.... maybe should)
 
Yes, what you're describing sounds like BTV/Hands-free equalization.

If you can get it to work underwater, it's the holy grail of equalization, some lucky (and/or well-trained) people seem to be able to use it for depth. For me, I can do it on the surface, but in the water it only works, if I'm head up or at least horizontal, so it works for getting rid of pressure in dynamic, but not much more.

I think it's still worth trying to do the movement even if it isn't sufficient to equalize on its own, because it reduces the pressure you need with Frenzel/Valsalva a bit... and with a lot of practice you may be able to get it to work head-down. There are some threads on this forum that describe additional tricks you can do to help, like yawning with your mouth closed, wriggling your jaw, doing light Frenzel against the pressure of the mask, but so far I've had no luck with it head-down, although I'm still trying.
 
Thanks

If what I'm doing is related to BTV then I'm chuffed! Wish I had some water to refine it to make it useful... In the meantime I'm going to carry on practicing so I can more consciously control the independent movement of my soft palate and epiglottis.

Out of interest the book mentioned earlier in the thread, Equalization for Freediving by Federico, is it still available anywhere? I've had a quick search but unfortunately haven't managed find anywhere that sells it.
 
Sounds similar to what I do for BTV on land.

Can't get it to work in the water (yet) though.

I move my chin (lower jaw) down and forward.

It's worth practicing just to condition these eustacian tube related muscles.

I've read that Mana book and to be honest, there is one part that stands out (a friend confirmed the exact same thing, unprovoked) and that's the final breath / inhale mouth action.

Other than that, unless you're willing to do his entire detailed regimen to try to decouple the glottis and soft palate, you're better off with another equalization method.
 

What you do makes sense but I think you are a bit confused on what actually happens when you create that negative pressure by lowering jaw etc - it's not the air from the e-tubes but from your throat/lungs you are bringing up to your mouth. Your e-tubes should still be closed at that point and glottis open and once you have air in your mouth the opposite happens ie glottis closes so that you don't lose the air back to your lungs and e-tubes open so that you can push air up from your mouth.

In reality if you are doing this instinctively they'll all fire of in quick succession. If you are not too deep or have wide e-tubes you might no even have to pressurise much with your tongue etc. You basically have control of your e-tubes so you don't need to rely on generating pressure to open them, you just use the muscles instead ie BTV. Lowering the the jaw and bringing it forward basically opens your e-tubes - if you focus you might find that you can still do it without even moving your jaw but opening the jaw works more reliably in the water, at least for me.

You can do exactly what you do now but also use your tongue too to frenzel air up if needed, which will make it even easier for your e-tubes to open.

Hope this helps a bit...
 
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