Frenzel = Reverse packing?

[cdavis]

This applies to me, not sure about anybody else, but I'd like to know if you are the same.

If I fully exhale, completely relax my chest,then frenzel dry, releasing the pressurized air through my nose each time, and keep repeating, eventually I pull my lung volume down to the point that I can't get any more nor can I reverse pack anything. I can feel that I am right on the edge of squeeze. This is essentially what happens during a dive, I can frenzel down to the point my chest won't contract anymore and negative pressure makes it impossible to frenzel again. Sad experiance has taught me to stop before squeeze.

This has a correllary. I have not learned to mouthfil and it appears to me that it would do me no good if my completely relaxed chest won't contract any farther. Greater depth then depends on greater chest flexibility, not mouthfil.


Anybody care to comment on the correllary??

 

[growingupninja]

For FRC you can still mouthfil just before you bottom out by reverse packing but it is really a full lung technique. Either way, if you are prone to squeeze then descending deep enough to where you need mouthfil to go deeper would be risky.

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[cdavis]

I'm prone to squeeze. Maybe I'm missing something, but, if I can reach my "squeeze depth" with a relaxed chest and Frenzel, taking air out of my lungs to fill my cheeks would only reduce my squeeze depth. How would mouthfil help me? Is it possible that I could relax my chest more if I used mouthfil, allowing greater contraction and increasing my squeeze depth.

I don't think the technique would be risky in my case, assuming I ever figure out how to do mouthfil. I'm lucky enough that I can feel squeeze coming on, before anything bad happens. Result of lots of bad experiance.

 

[growingupninja]

A lot of the deepest handsfree divers seem to struggle with mouthfil and ultimately settle on a hybrid technique. It is most useful for divers who run out of lung air for eq before they are in danger of squeeze, AND it is not uncommon for divers to get their first squeezes in the same day they figure out mouthfil... I think it would be of limited use for a handsfree FRC diver.

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[cdavis]

"A lot of the deepest handsfree divers seem to struggle with mouthfil and ultimately settle on a hybrid technique"

Now, that is REALLY interesting. Sounds like me. I've been pretty sure there was something about my equalization technique that made mouthfil super difficult. Any idea what the "hybrid technique" consists of?

"It is most useful for divers who run out of lung air for eq before they are in danger of squeeze"
"I think it would be of limited use for a handsfree FRC diver."

That is what logic leads me to.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Kray]

As a born handfree, I got my mf by a noseclip in a 4m swimming pool in 3 days. By doing reverse pack, fill my mouth and see if I can use it.

If you still can equalize by air in the upper part after RV, and lung already adapts to bloodshift (it should, because you have been diving for so long) . You should feel comfortable.

 

[AlexbeeintheUK]

Also a 'born handsfree' diver.
Have used BTV/VTO to 40m with no issues but have not attempted to find what my depth limit is with it. I know a Bahamian diver who does handsfree to 58m and could probably do more.

When I learnt the mouthfill it was really just a matter of getting full control over the glottis and becoming fully 'aware' of it - everything else was already in place from my BTV capabilities such as soft palette control. Also worth noting that for MF to be effective even with BTV you still need to incorporate some Frenzel, which leads me to the following;
In terms of developing an individual "hybrid" technique I guess it boils down to what feels right at the time when descending. I BTV until I take my MF at 20-25m and then its probably about 60-80% BTV with intermittent frenzel - when BTV doesn't give me enough juice to get a proper EQ I will do a gentle frenzel to ensure full EQ.

This brings me back to your original post

I have not learned to mouthfil and it appears to me that it would do me no good if my completely relaxed chest won't contract any farther

If you do learn to MF then you will be taking your MF at a comfortable depth, say 15-20m and then closing your glottis and using just that air for your EQ. The whole point of mouthfill EQ [the way I see it] is to prevent the use of the diaphragm for EQ at depth which can lead to squeeze.
When I practice MF I will do a couple of very slow FRC dives with a single MF at the surface and hit 25-30m with my deepest being 36m. I should probably also mention I only dive with a mask - I'm a big wuss when it comes to getting water in my eyes.

 

[cdavis]

When you are doing FRC, about how close to empty is FRC, almost empty (like me) or around/just under half lung?

 

[AlexbeeintheUK]

When you are doing FRC, about how close to empty is FRC, almost empty (like me) or around/just under half lung?

I would say about half lung.
On full exhale i don't/haven't gone deeper than 10m for risk of squeeze

Regardless of the exhale amount, for these dives I take a mouthfill at the surface and use only that to EQ. FRC dives for me are more about ensuring good MF technique and a little depth adaptation.

 

[growingupninja]

"A lot of the deepest handsfree divers seem to struggle with mouthfil and ultimately settle on a hybrid technique"

Now, that is REALLY interesting. Sounds like me. I've been pretty sure there was something about my equalization technique that made mouthfil super difficult. Any idea what the "hybrid technique" consists of?

"It is most useful for divers who run out of lung air for eq before they are in danger of squeeze"
"I think it would be of limited use for a handsfree FRC diver."

That is what logic leads me to.

Thanks for the help!

Connor, for mouthfil to work you have to keep the throat locked while you are equalizing your ears (by any method), otherwise you will either swallow the air or lose it back to the lung and if you originally took mouthfil at the max possible depth (typical/advised for deepest diving) you wont get it back. A lot of natural handsfree divers seem to struggle with this because when they voluntarily open the tubes they lose the throat lock. Also tricky if you want to eq a mask. I had to retrain myself to maintain my throat lock while opening up the other spaces for eq.

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[AlexbeeintheUK]

A lot of natural handsfree divers seem to struggle with this because when they voluntarily open the tubes they lose the throat lock. Also tricky if you want to eq a mask. I had to retrain myself to maintain my throat lock while opening up the other spaces for eq.

Agreed, this is what I struggled with until I learnt proper technique from Jonny Sunnex.

 

[Kray]

When you are doing FRC, about how close to empty is FRC, almost empty (like me) or around/just under half lung?

FRC for most people means, you do full inhale, and exhale until the pressure in lung equal to pressure outside. This way we can gauge the same amount of air for every FRC dive.

My frc can take me more than 45m without mf. Empty (not forceful empty) can go about 30 depending on how deep I try to reverse pack to fill the mouth. Empty with MF on surface I got to about 27.

 

[cdavis]

Thanks, that makes sense. Taking a course from Sunnex in Dominica is on my short list. Maybe he can help.

Kray: The problem with the FRC definition is that the amount of air (percentage of full lung) varies hugely between different divers. Many divers are like Alex and FRC is around 1/2 lung. Some divers(like me) can do exactly the same thing, passive exhale, and be near empty. Its not a very useful definition in and of itself.