• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 44,280+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 516,210+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,441+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

Frenzel technique , I find it hard in Step #7 !!!!!

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

laminar

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2001
1,129
206
168
Re: Thanks guys!

bolts said:
I do the alternating nose/mouth breathing exercises and can feel the soft palate working, but actually voluntarily CONTROLLING it is a whole other issue. It is frickin' HARD! :head Ah well, I'll keep at it.

For me I found that the longer I did the mouth/nose alternating breathing, I could slow it down, from 5 mouth breaths to 5 nose breaths, 4,3,2,1 and then slow down each transition from 1 mouth breath to 1 nose breath and then I could isolate (with time) the muscular movement that put the soft palate into "nose breathing mode" and "mouth breathing mode." Then to control the soft palate, I would do nose breath, pause, relax, nose breath. That's the control of the soft palate that you need, the one that puts it in position to allow air to move into from your lungs into your mouth AND nose at the same time. When you close your throat, now you have a passage of air between sinuses/eustachian tubes and mouth. Once you can isolate the soft palate muscle in that in between mode, then go back to the Equalizing document and go through it again. Keep at it, you'll get it. Do it in a quiet place where you can hear and feel the movements. And I also think that is better to practice daily for ten minutes, rather than try to get it down all in one session of a couple of hours. Depends on you, I guess.

While I'm at it...one other question. This may be dumb, but hey, might as well ask... :hmm When it says to "squeeze" your cheeks, is it as simple as just collapsing your cheeks when they're fully expanded? Or is there something more to it?

Another way to think of it is that you are closing your jaw while holding the muscles of your cheeks close to your teeth....I think this is a little easier to realize than trying to somehow suck your cheeks in. Try it. Thinks of your cheek muscles as enveloping your jaw and teeth bones and then maintain that tension as you close your jaw (bringing lower teeth to meet upper teeth).

I guess that's one of the harder things about reading stuff and trying to teach it to yourself....you try to interpret what the reader means, which for a newbie is kinda tough. It would be easier, I guess, to have an experienced "mentor" to help out and demonstrate things, but hey, clinics are only a few days of the year. I do appreciate the help from everyone here. Thanks again. Believe me, if I get it right, you'll likely be the first to know... ;)

This is part of the frustration and joy of freediving. There are so many things to learn about the internal workings of your own body, enough to occupy you for a lifetime! (I hope more clinics actually tackle equalizing. The ones I am familiar with do not. )

All the best,

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC
 
Last edited:

jimbodiver

Deeper Blue Enthusiast
Oct 12, 2004
51
0
0
Re: Frenzel technique, without pinching nose

Tyler -- thanks for the reply, and comments. I guess that means there's no way to prevent pressure from mouth (tongue piston) from going into the nose (so the pressure is only there for e-tubes). That said, I realize I can use the back pressure from mask, etc. Just was wondering if I was missing some technique for closing off the nose from mouth, and still have pathway for air to the e-tubes. Guess not, eh? Thanks again....I will look at those other threads as well.

BTW, I can voluntarily open my e-tubes...using a sort of yawn or stretching of my jaw muscles (even without opening my mouth. I hear a rumbling in my ears....a sort of muscle rumble, when I do this. I also simultaneously hear the clicking of my e-tubes opening.) I can do this without any positive pressure on the tubes. But it's a bit harder to do in-water than sitting here on dry land.
 
Last edited:

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
Hey, your welcome Jimbodiver!

Exactly, there does not appear to be any means of issolating the pressure to the tubes, in terms of the normal body. ;)

Regarding the rumbling sound, the first thing I tell people when helping them with equalizing, is that you know you are equalizing when you can hear rumbling or your own voice in your head like the sound of a bellowing version of yourself. ;) I usually recommend that people hum when they think they have succeeded to equalize or are uncertain. At this point the humming should change from an external sound, to a much deeper/lower internal sound.

It is a useful thing to be aware of, in checking ones equalizing. When one becomes tired or cold, often we lose sensation of our muscles, and this does happen with the eustacian tubes as well. So, even though you think you are doing the same thing, late in the winter day's dive, you can not tell if when you are opening the tubes at the surface. So, you just hum a little tune, and then you know.

So, I am assuming the rumbling you are hearing is the product of the tubes being open and hearing the sounds of your body internally. I didn't explain why everything sounds deeper/lower. It is because you have a relatively large airway open that can move a lot more air than your eardrum can, and you now receive the collective vibrations in the bodies airways coming internally, directly to the middle ear. You are not hearing through the eardrum, but instead skipping that, with an open conduit to your internal air movements (sound).

Cheers,

Tyler
 
Last edited:

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
And lastly, if you can voluntarily open your eustacian tubes, then the equalizing hands free should be relatively easy, and losing out the mask, should not be much concern. When you open the tubes and then allow the air to be transfered past the soft palate, there is almost no pressure required for the air to transfer up the eustacian tubes, since the compression of the air in the middle ear is pulling the ear drum, which wants to return to its position. This means the ear drum actually assist in pulling the air into the middle ear. It may be such a miniscule amount but it just clarifies that the pressure required to allow air to escape the mask will be much greater than the pressure required to equalize the ear. So, just remember to open the tubes first, before attempting to pressurize the air in the mouth.
 

jimbodiver

Deeper Blue Enthusiast
Oct 12, 2004
51
0
0
Ty - yep, understand.

BTW, the "rumbling" I mentioned is essentially the same thing you hear when you have a BIG yawn. It seems to me that what I'm hearing is the "noise" of jaw and associated muscles straining at same time the e-tubes are open, which allows this low-magnitude "noise" to be easily heard via thru the air column that's now open directly to the eardrum via the inside of the ear, as you say. I just mentioned the rumble so as to ensure you knew how I came to conclusion that I was opening the e-tubes voluntarily (no pos pressure).
 

kpk

New Member
Nov 8, 2004
27
1
0
51
Tylerz and anyone else , please

Can you describe exactly , in a few words , the way that Frenzel technique works. I mean , where you dive the ear drums are compressed inwards and then you have to make them decompress outwards etc.

Thanks
 

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
- mouth is filled with air, epiglottis closed.
- pressure of water on eardrum compresses air on opposite side of eardrum (the middle ear).
- desire to alleviate uncomfortable pressure on eardrum occurs.
- soft palate is set to neutral position.
- nasal and mouth airways are now connected airways with equal air pressure.
- the eustacian tube muscles are flexed open, for those with voluntary muscle control. This muscle is connected to the soft palate and when controlled causes the upper part of the soft palate to rise. You can feel this if you curl your tongue back (way back) to the roof of your mouth as you voluntarily equalize.
- the eustacian tube opening, at base of the nasal airway, has equal pressure air in it as well.
- the purposeful diminishing of airspace in the mouth, takes place, forcing the air out of the mouth.
- the air now exerts more pressure than previously on the airways.
- the air will flow to equalize the pressure throughout the connected airways.
- the pressure will stretch, push, break down, the weakest areas of resistence to its pressure.
- if the eustacian tubes are open, the equalizing of this pressure would have already caused the eardrum to return to position, as the air filled the middle ear.
- if the eustacian tubes were not open, hopefully they will be the weakest location, if you wish for a successfull equalization. The air pressure will squeeze them into an open position.
- the air is pressurized a little more until the eardrum actually flexes outward past its resting position, to maximize the volume of air in the middle ear, and allow a longer time before next required equalization.

That is it in a nutshell.
 

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
1,289
200
153
44
Go ahead and laugh :)

A lightbulb just went on over my head...
Earlier I wrote about what a shame it was you couldn't hear me. Never afraid of being embarassed, I went ahead and recorded myself. But all of a sudden all these different noises and ideas kept popping up, so I wrote a little "vocal tutorial".

Maybe it's nonsense, or maybe it'll actually help someone. You be the judge.
And please, suggest more! I've already benefitted greatly from Tyler's suggestions (bottle sucking and humming while learing to control e-tubes).

You can view the frist draft here.
 
Last edited:

kpk

New Member
Nov 8, 2004
27
1
0
51
Tylerz
Thanks a lot for the analysis. It is very helpfull , as always.

Jome
Your draft is marvelous. Exactly what I needed. Controlling the eustachian tubes is the major point.
What about moving the ears , as an exercise ? What do you think about this ?
And another one exercise , I think may work. Prepair your self to swallow , clam the muscles on your neck (back side of your neck) , try to swallow BUT DON'T SWALLOW. Stop one click before swallow. Jaw moving maybe help. I can't explain it better. Maybe someone else can. I think it works for me.

Please , post more things about controlling the eustachian tubes.
Thanks a lot
 
Last edited:

tylerz

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2002
733
114
133
HAHAHA Way to "go out on a limb", Jome!!! That was very fun.

But really, good work... Not only creative but also well written. Although to my disappointment you perfectly demonstrated the humming as it shouldn't sound, and then it seems the link is missing for what it will sound like?

Cheers guys!
 

aquatic ape

New Member
Aug 25, 2004
30
5
0
52
Great thread, after reading Eric's doc and your suggestions on the ng, I can do the Frenzel technique. The funny thing is that I am not conscience of how I am putting it all together. So far I have done it dry and doing dynamics at 10 feet. It definitly takes less enegy. I noticed that when practicing dynamics in the pool that equalizing with the valvalsa burned some o2. Even when using the frenzel tech the mental conceatration seems to tap more o2. I am sure that when it becomes second nature it will take allhost no enegy and I can equalize relaxed.
 

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
1,289
200
153
44
Just noticed something today.

Learing to control the etubes with the "humming method" is easier if you wear a nose clip. At least for me.

In fact, I noticed this after surfacing and realizing after a while that I could hear my breathing booming in my ears. I noticed that by applying very subtle pressure to you nose while breathing (yes, you have to have soft palate open but breath through your mouth) helps tremendously in opening the etubes.

Just one more tip to help you get started if you're stuck...
 

kpk

New Member
Nov 8, 2004
27
1
0
51
Jome

I don't understand how can you blow subtle pressure to you nose while breathing but the nose clip is a very good tip , because opening etubes while breathing is a totaly different thing than opening etubes while you keep your breath , like you are diving.
I guess my problem is that I have very tight etubes. I can do Frenzel but my ears don't open. I can't hear the "pop" sound. I can voluntary open my etubes by moving my ears and my jaw together. The "hmmmm" tip is "all the money". The problem is that I can't move the tongue upwards doing Frenzel and simultaneously move my ears and my jaw to open my tubes. It is very difficult. I guess it is the only way , for me , to equalize.
How do you use the etubes opening. Do you open the etubes , every time you are doing the Frenzel technique or just for one time in the begining of your dive.
Well , I 'm quite pissed off. I 've tried hard to learn Frenzel , I've tried hard to learn opening the etubes but I think that I have to put all together to work. Do you have any idea?

By the way , the etubes opening in the water , while you are diving , supposed to be enough for equalization. That's what you are doing when you use the BTV method for equalization. You keep your etubes open. Am I right?
 
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2021 deeperblue.net limited.

DeeperBlue.com is the World's Largest Community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving, Spearfishing and Diving Travel.

We've been dedicated to bringing you the freshest news, features and discussions from around the underwater world since 1996.

ADVERT