How FRC training for a max inhale

[constantine]

Hi everybody,

i want to make my training step by step and would get better in STA and DNF now with FRC. Iam currently do 3 times a week 25m dnf´s in FRC it looks like:

- 1-2x 50m+ (ca70%)
- a hang till 1st contraction than dive 25m the break ist 7 breaths between each length -> i make that for 15min.
- dolphin style(like monofinning without fins) 25m with 10 breaths between i make that for 15min
- swim out for 10-15min different styles

thats all in FRC

so when i make a training schedule and make this for 2months. after that i change to max´s in STA with full inhale. can i improve with that style of training my diving ability?
is it better to change than from FRC-diving to no-warm-full-inhale or warm-up-full-inhale??

thanks for reply,
cheers

 

[Kars]

Hi Constantine.

I think you're doing some pretty challenging training here, especially the repeated no fins dolphin stroke.

But let me ask you, how do you think FRC works?

What is/are your training goal(s)?

 

[constantine]

frc, i thought, is the adaptation from lower O2 ratio in your body. So of course u have less oxygen for the dive and also lower Co2 storage. the MDR kicks better in. for a better MDR is it necessary to hold until the 1st contraction and then swim (my thoughts until now). the other effect is that the blood rise the points in haematocrit and haemoglobin (seb murat).
than when u return to full inhale diving, your body knows how to handle better with that low air ratio and u can longer dive. the contraction time is maybe more than before but it more comfortable.

my goals: better in STA and DNF
i know there are 2 different goals, but maybe there is way to train both...

thanks kars for quick reply

 

[Kars]

Recently I've been doing experiments to validate a hypothesis I have.
I short I think one of the most positive benefit of FRC lies in invoking a full MDR quickly.
Now, what is the MDR? - Low blood-flow, vasocontriction, low metabolism, muscles working anaerobically.
Would it not be nice to have a the benefits of FRC with full lungs?
I'm working on that idea, and my results appear to be promising and confirming my hypothesis.

What is my hypothesis?

Regulating one's blood flow is key for freediving.​

If we can help each other to develop the things to do, and how to train these things to be the most efficient, it would make for a nice contribution to ourselves and the freediving community.

A friend of mine spontaneous reported to me in the pool that he found that for him the first dive of the session feels the best the greatest feeling of relaxation. Note that he nearly always comes up when his contractions start. He mostly dives within the easy phase. He swims and dives once a week for 1-2 hours. The last session being underway we had a little chat and I shared the idea of a more relaxed and slow series of breaths followed by a little static allowing the body to slow down before starting a dynamic. He was thrilled with this deliciously easy feeling experience. Note that we do NOT wait for the first contraction, we wait 10-15 seconds for our HR and blood-flow to slow.

I also like to train efficiently. And I think CO2 dynamics are a nice way to train both efficient swimming and CO2. FRC CO2 dynamics I have not tried.
1) But may I ask you how fast do you swim subjectively speaking? (slow, medium or sprint)
2) Secondarily, how strong is your vasoconstriction in the first, second, half way, end of such FRC CO2 dynamic session?
3) Is your heart-rate slower in an FRC CO2 dynamic session compared to a normal CO2 dynamic session?

I have a suspicion that doing FRC CO2 dynamics maybe counter productive, that it lessens the MDR response because you're training you body to have a high blood-flow.

 

[constantine]

Recently I've been doing experiments to validate a hypothesis I have.
I short I think one of the most positive benefit of FRC lies in invoking a full MDR quickly.
Now, what is the MDR? - Low blood-flow, vasocontriction, low metabolism, muscles working anaerobically.
Would it not be nice to have a the benefits of FRC with full lungs?
I'm working on that idea, and my results appear to be promising and confirming my hypothesis.

What is my hypothesis?

Regulating one's blood flow is key for freediving.​

If we can help each other to develop the things to do, and how to train these things to be the most efficient, it would make for a nice contribution to ourselves and the freediving community.

A friend of mine spontaneous reported to me in the pool that he found that for him the first dive of the session feels the best the greatest feeling of relaxation. Note that he nearly always comes up when his contractions start. He mostly dives within the easy phase. He swims and dives once a week for 1-2 hours. The last session being underway we had a little chat and I shared the idea of a more relaxed and slow series of breaths followed by a little static allowing the body to slow down before starting a dynamic. He was thrilled with this deliciously easy feeling experience. Note that we do NOT wait for the first contraction, we wait 10-15 seconds for our HR and blood-flow to slow.

I also like to train efficiently. And I think CO2 dynamics are a nice way to train both efficient swimming and CO2. FRC CO2 dynamics I have not tried.
1) But may I ask you how fast do you swim subjectively speaking? (slow, medium or sprint)
2) Secondarily, how strong is your vasoconstriction in the first, second, half way, end of such FRC CO2 dynamic session?
3) Is your heart-rate slower in an FRC CO2 dynamic session compared to a normal CO2 dynamic session?

I have a suspicion that doing FRC CO2 dynamics maybe counter productive, that it lessens the MDR response because you're training you body to have a high blood-flow.

hi kars,
yeah i fully agree in the comfort for the 1st dive in dynamic but the contractions start a little earlier (ca. 10m). with that waiting is a little confius..., because i dont think there is a big difference between waiting for 10sec or not (when the heartrate is up than the blood goes to the muscles, if u swim or not and after the 1st length the heartrate is the same against you are not waiting) thats my 2cents
for your questions:
1) for the first 15min normal DNF´s i swim from slow ones to medium speed and the dolphin ones are mostly 1 medium and one between medium and sprint, when they will be too heavy the next is medium but slow no.
2)i cant say what is the vasoconstriction, when its the slow peaceful feeling at the body turn down, by me its always after 1 length and a feeling that u are like breathing underwater after 5-10min . a other thing is i make all wihout suit and after the session i get in 1min cold but by the way my heartrate goes down when i only wash my face with water--> then the heartbeatvolume rise up (this exist always but since this training it is more, is that any sign for MDR??? )
3)I don´t know how big is the difference between this heart-rates between it, because i have no pulse-watch...
i dont know if its the adaptation or the style. i start 2 weeks with normal inhale 25m´s intervalls and then i change to FRC and i had no hard headaches anymore. now i havent any and can decrease the breaks every 1 or 2 weeks.

 

[Kars]

Constantine, I think I made a mistake in my communication, I'll try to be more precise, articulate, unequivocal, logical and clear.
Please do see that I'm talking about two different things: max dynamic and CO2 Dynamics. The max dynamic is my main goal, and CO2 dynamic a training tool.

For a max dynamic I suggest doing a little static, allowing the HR to go down, before starting to swim. When I see my static HR graph I'm amazed to see that after inhale and packing my HR is 103. When I put my head under water it falls like a rock withing 5 seconds to 75, and then 30 seconds later it's 54. Then it slowly curves down to 35 at 2'30" after submersion - this happens to coincide with my first contraction. This is on full inhale + packing. My goal is to train myself and to design my preparation and dive so it allows for my heart to throttle back to the nice low 54 as fast as possible. Then I'll start to swim. Through pace, technique and mental control keep my HR (and blood-flow) low.

Now for CO2 Dynamics, my goal is NOT to keep my HR low.
My goals are getting used to high CO2 and practice efficient swimming.
Of cause my HR is high during such exercise.
Surely I don't do a static after submerging.

In regard to your question about facial immersion triggering lower HR, YES that's part of the MDR. And surely when you dry of your face it will return to normal. So for a max dynamic you want to keep your warm face dry, and enjoy the biggest MDR when you start your dive.

Interesting observation you make for your CO2 dynamics, comparing the FRC CO2 dynamics to normal full inhale ones. It's very inspirational information. When I did my fastest 16x50m I had a powerful CO2 headache for 10-15min afterwards - Thanks!

Training for longer STA & DYN.
I think if you want to increase you max dynamic you also need to practice doing a max. dynamic.
Because a max dive is very exhausting, I suggest doing it in the beginning of the week, followed by a rest day. The dive should be around say 90% of your performance (exit > 10 seconds before samba/BO). This is to be done at the beginning of the session, without any apnea warm-ups and also avoiding high HR during warmups. Only with a knowledgeable buddy of cause.

After the performance, drink and swim a few slow laps to recover, after that light buddying of your buddy, technique training, playful stuff.

 

[trux]

Constantine, have a look at couple of the FRC threads in the archives:
frc - DeeperBlue.com Forums - Threads Tagged with frc

Especially the http://forums.deeperblue.com/general-freediving/78598-exhale-diving-average-diver.html may be of an interest. FRC divers often report loss of performance and the need of adaptation time when switching back to full lungs. So it is possible that purely FRC focused training aiming for maximum with full lungs may not be the right choice. FRC should be part of the training too, since it helps with different aspects, but the physiological adaptation seems not to be identical to that needed for full lungs.

 

[mattbigblue]

hmm
last year before I went to Greece, for 10 days in a row I was diving in my little quarry (31m depth), 3-5x to the bottom on FRC with little hang and then going sloowly up, aiming for long dive time (usually it was around 3:00, on a few dives I hit 3+). I must say, I had amazing dive times later on full lungs, but You can't neglect to do strength exercises and anaerobic exercises to train Your muscles, otherwise You might get to the point that oxygen is not limiting You, but muscles failure do

 

[constantine]

thanks for all the information, iam not at the end of reading the mammut thread, which trux was posted (its that thing what which i was looking for)
what i can say for kars:
at my last session it was at the 3rd dive after a easy 65m dive, where i feel the comfort feeling. but i will write more updates when i know more stuff

cheers
andi

 

[Kars]

Just to let you fine people know, today my friend carl tried the pause before you swim approach and commented that his usual dynamic distance with a convincing ease. He adds that he would use the same approach when trying for a max dynamic.

 

[constantine]

thanks for all reply! it helped a lot in my diving !
dont have a pb, but the feeling of my training is incredible now with frc. when i play around with 80% of my VC its like never ending... . the dnf´s in front goes up to very easy 80m ´s
i do my sessions 3x per week and cycle from there to there ..
i wait until i make these training-sessions for 10weeks than i make the next step.

@kars: of course its better do always like tom every time a max, but i think u can also close to that performance in a other way. in sports like classic marathon u dont run in training 40km, u make one time in a week a longer run like 35km and make lots of intervall things with short distances. a good 5000m runner can run over 15km-20km comfort.
for diving must be the same or? so when train intervall things with frc/exhale must have more effort for building Co2 and O2 tolerances.

the difference between is big from what the body is using. white/red muscle fibers, long/ short endurance, .. but on running u can also go out of oxygen like diving.