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how long is the journey?

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

jimbodiver

Deeper Blue Enthusiast
Oct 12, 2004
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Dhu -- I agree with all that's been posted. I happen to have shared some of your questions and doubts myself, as I too am working to break through barriers to reach new PBs. I love deeperblue, and have learned a lot from the knowledgable folks who share their wisdom and information here. However, I determined very quickly that I not only needed to complement such info with a professional course for Safety reasons, I needed it to get the true benefits of in-person coaching....something I can't obtain from reading postings on a forum. ;)

One point nobody seems to have mentioned yet in this thread, but one I keep in mind as I compare my various efforts: some experts say that a typical apnea diver should be able to go about half the time in a dynamic effort that he/she can do in a static. So, if you can repeatedly do a static of 2:30, you should be able to do a dive or dynamic apnea swim that lasts 1:15. Using that calculation, along with how much time it takes you to swim a certain distance now (either horizontal, or up/down on a dive) will tell you about how much depth or distance you can cover in a given amount of time. Yes, a dive involves having your lungs compressed (whereas not on a dynamic in the pool), but unlike the pool where you must create thrust for the whole distance, on the dive hopefully you can drift down after passing the neutral buoyancy point, saving energy and oxygen for the ascent. So, it may be closer to the same than you might think at first.

The other factor is the "anxiety" factor, where on a dive (versus dynamic swim in the pool) you know you can't simply pop up any moment when you feel you've had enough...gotta kick all the way to the surface, regardless. That could very well be what's holding you from going deeper. NOTE: LISTEN to what your brain is telling you!....don't attempt going any deeper unless you have safety divers, etc., and ideally not before taking a professional freediving course.

BTW, I'm taking this medicine myself....will be attending next month one of Kirk Krack's advanced FD courses (with 2-3 world record holders helping to run and teach/coach the course). I'm confident I'll come home with a TON of ideas, new techniques, etc. Most importantly, Performance Freediving courses are very well known for their focus on safety....above all else. I hope you have the opportunity to take a course like this yourself! Check out:

www.performancefreediving.com

Best wishes in development of your freediving skills.
 
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dhu

New Member
Oct 6, 2004
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thanks everyone!

very encouraging. i feel like i'm right on the verge of great things. very exciting. i'll keep you all posted as to how i'm getting along.
 

Freediver81

The Arabian Stallion
Feb 5, 2004
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Hi okane,

I would advise you to get to know a little bit more about the freedivers in this forum before you start calling them shitheads again!!! :naughty

There are several world class freedivers and freediving instructors on this forum and many competent divers which I have witnessed their competence!

for example you have eric fattah which is regularly writing in the forum, go do an internet search and see what you find!!! :head

I understand your point that you would recommend dhu to do a freediving course and i myself would also give him the same recommendation since I did a freediving course under the instruction of my friend, former World Record holder in unassisted freediving Erez Beatus!!!

The point is you could have given the recomendation without calling everybody shitheads! :naughty
 
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Ntrik

Well-Known Member
Jan 27, 2004
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Hello Dhu

Okanes post was quite overstated but meaning in my opinion was "dont chase the meters". I will say some things as fellow spearfisherman and with utmost respect to freedivers here that freely make available their knowledge concentrated over years.

First let me say that most spearos i know get stuck in the 5m-12m zone for even 10 years. So you are no exception especially if you have been diving alone. If you have become profficient at catching fish at 7m you will definitely see your technique paying off in deeper fish that are more relaxed. However if you are a solitary diver dont try to go deeper on your own. Part of the mind barrier is the fact that you dont have anybody watching over you as you attempt to go deeper. Try leaving the speargun on the beach one day and just mess about freediving. You will be surprised at the ease when you arent thinking about fish and dragging a long arbalette around.

I believe there are significant differences between freediving and spearing, not in same context with Okanes superstitious fear and disbelief of depth, but in objectives. It is much easier I think to make a freedive to 30m than to employ spearing technique to locate, spear, and retrieve a holed up fish at 17m. More complex procedures involved (physical and mental) therefore much greater experience (time) necessary to reach high (deep) standard in spearfishing than freediving.

As far as depth goes YES there are spearos who commonly fish in the 25m-35m zone both for leisure and in competition. When I say commonly I mean consistently (not the odd dive at 30m), while some go much deeper. Alberto March regularly takes fish under 40m for example-this is fact not my opinion. The deepest fish taken on breathhold as rumored was a dentex at 62m by Italian athlete Del Bene (also nicknamed "big brother") who was in his mid 40's at the time.

Depth is not the purpose of spearfishing. Agreed one could argue that fish are more abundant or easier to approach at depth, but you can pretty much target the same species of fish at 10m as others do at 40m. It shows lack of brain matter if you persist to dive deep in search of fish that you can find much shallower.

Is the journey long? Well it depends...If you are a seasonal spearo or a fulltime one. I think that is the basic prerequisite. If you can at least go spearing once a week or more you will gradually see your apnea/stamina/depth increasing irrespective of your spearing technique. If you can attend a clinic it would certainly speed things along and teach you basics such as equalising properly which will make a difference. From then on spearing with someone experienced will show you the proper pace of the dive, the execution of proper technique, and will serve to conquer the mind barrier of depth. But yes in the end it SHOULD be a lengthy process. It is no accident that spearing champs age ranges around 35-45. It takes time even though some of these guys are in the water 5 times a week for decades. As the axiom goes “one can communicate knowledge but not wisdom”. Ive been spearing with “clinic graduates” at the pinnacle of physical condition that almost drowned when their mask leaked at 10m. You cant just discover freediving and in 6 months expect to be spearing groupers at 25m no matter how many clinics you attend or protein shakes you swallow.
 

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
449
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Hi everyone,

I think there is lots of good advice on Deeperblue, and most members are very helpful. Of course, there is no substitute for real diving experience, but there is a lot to learn from other people's experiences.

Maybe a few members are not completely honest, but they must be very few. If someone is giving dangerous advice, it's important to let them know, as they might not be aware, but there is a lot more good advice than bad.

I hope to learn a lot more.

Lucia
 

okane

New Member
Oct 28, 2004
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Surprised

Very surprised about the reaction of some divers in this forum.

Very surprised of the interpretation they make of what i wrote.

First of all I never wrote "ALL" meaning absoluotly everybody, I mentioned that a lot of guys, encourage and advice from their keyboard to newbies to do something that could cost them their lives.

Newbies are newbies, if you just tell them that all is in their minds, that they just have to "go for it", as in nike advertising you are going to kill somebody, maybe to some freedivers is just a state of mind, or a psycologycal barrier, but for most of divers is a real barrier.

At the end we all end up talking about ourselves, i will not be the exeption.

I practiced scuba for many years and some time later I started spare fishing freediving, I tought that freediving was kind of easy considering that this was not cave diving, it was for me at the time snorkeling with a spare, for dummies, then one day fishing I saw lot of big fat fishes at 15 meters, but I couldn't reach them, I was in the range of 7 to 10 meters
Went to the internet, diferent forums, to my questions I always had the same answers, "Shure everybody does it" "Regular guys spearefish at 40 meters one handed", "It's all in your mind, just go and do it".

So I did, at the begining it was great I was doing 15 to 18 meters hunting, as always, by myself, solo freediving, sometimes 1 of every 3 dives I reached the surface dizzy or lightheaded, with one leg kind of trembling, no big problem 3 minutes later I was fine, but I kept reading in the internet, do static, do dynamic, think in your grany in your way down and that stuff went on an on. Why not?, maybe I could go to 25, 30, 40??

One morning I took my zodiac, and as always we went out my wife and I, I said to her, I'll see how deep can I go, i'll tie this rope to my hand, If I don't get out in 3 mins, just pull the rope. Is it dangerous she said?, Hey everybody does it, is just 25, after all I'm a dive master, tech diver, this is like snorkeling with the macho element.

So I went down to twenty five, then I went up, and out I was, very happy by the way, untill I saw her crying, tought I came out myself, she told me I was not, after 3 mins she pulled the line and took my head out of the water, I was blacked out, when my face surfaced i started breathing again, went to the doctor, he said I was fine.

Looking for answers I found AIDA, went to a course and took several seminars, I understood then that I had lots and lots of sambas, and at least one black out, I learned that there is no easy way of doing things, and that freediving is as complex as tech diving, that the "go for it" attitude kills divers, and that competition have no place in any type of diving including freediving.

A lot of fishermans die in my country and in the world by hiperventilating and diving alone, this is a serious topic, and a lethal sport if it is practiced without the proper learning and study and physical preparation.

Of course I recognize AIDA as a valid organization, they saved my life¡¡¡¡¡

Do I think that 2 or 3 guys in this forum are the WHOLE institution of AIDA??, I do not.

Or at least you don't have the attitude of my AIDA teachers who first told me "never freedive alone, not even in the shower" "never dive without proper training and out of your seminars range" "never go for the meters"

I don't think that I insulted the forum, I did insulted and call shit heads to the guys in this forum who advice to go deeper by their balls, and any other participant who tells a newbie by omision or activley that to be a freediver is just a matter of wanting it, and that school can be jumped cause everybody does it;

"""Do pranayana one morning, think in your dog in the way down, kick harder go deeper sport, ooooo by the way, if you have some free time and extra cash, take a seminar, in some cases it could be usefull"" .

I couldn't posibly care less about the damaged ego of some participants of this forum, if in exchange I could do that some newbies go to a proper AIDA course, in my point of view, lifes are more important than your vision of yourselves or the recognition you think you are entitled.

My point of view is histerical and overreacted, and it may be radical, but when we talk about life there is no other way of seeing things, the solo diving, the one meter more, the "take me down there" has to end in freediving.

That does not mean that we stop doing what we do, this means that nobody should take an unecesary risk, beeing a freediver does not mean that sooner or later you have to die, that there are technics to do things, and this means that freediving is not and should not be a risky activity, when with the proper training and technics can be a rewarding and challenging way of life.

Did I insulted the whole forum, I did not.

Now I can spare at 20 to 25 meters, and I feel fine about it, I know now what is hapening in my body, I do training and after a lot of time of looking for I have a dive budy, I do freedive safley cause I went to school, and with all the proper security, and a whole team watching for all of us, I did my mark last year of 35 meters, and it's mine, and for me is a lot, and I do respect the guys who do 50, but I also respect the guys who can do 7 and I do respect that for some divers 7 is a lot, as for some of us 35 is a lot and for some 50 is a lot, cause this is not a matter of how deep, is about feeling good with the universe and with ourselves.

Any advice to a newbie who does not start with "FIRST OF ALL GO TO SCHOOL", It's irresponsable and could cost somebodys life.

It doesn't matter I you have the world record, if you don't send the newbie to a seminar and instead you tell him to go for it, then you are indeed a shit head.

Saludos
Okane
 
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Kars

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2003
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Looks like you've had a VERY BAD experience, I can now immagine your commitment warning newbee's.

I think you've put your words down much better, and I agree with your view.

Indeed many beginners tent to think of freediving as extreme 'snorkeling', where snorkeling is for children not old enough to scuba dive.
When I started scubadiving we first started of snorkling, it was the 'build-up' to the REAL stuff, Scuba diving...

In all I think people on this forum are aware of the dangers, and I see often warnings and advises against solo freediving, having a proper course etc.

Maybe DB needs a beginners FAQ, so that every beginner can read the most importand lessons right away, and not needing to seek through the whole forum.

I hope to see your more arround Okane, and boost your post count helping/sharing!


Love, peace and water!

Carlos
 
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samdive

Mermaid, Musician and Marketer
Nov 12, 2002
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as several of us have already said, you CANNOT learn to freedive over the internet.

Use this as a resource once you have had some basic training for sure, but be wary and get some proper instruction first.

you can find a full list of AIDA instructors worldwide on www.aida-international.org

Sam
 

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
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I agree with Carlos that maybe we should have a basic factsheet for beginners, as random searching through Deeperblue might not be the best way to learn the basics.

When I first started pool training, I had to read some safety stuff, and it has helped me a lot. Before that, I used to do all sorts of dangerous things alone, but now I can make informed decisions.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood some things

Lucia
 

Fondueset

Carp Whisperer
Jul 27, 2004
4,604
734
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Basically I never go past mild discomfort. I'm in this for fun, after all. Personally I wouldn't even shoot for 20 meters without some backup - and I'm quite sure this depth would be easy for me. Around here if I want people to freedive with I'll probably have to organize them myself and popularize the sport in this area. Dive shop owners here seem to regard me as some sort of mutant - though they are friendly in a cautious sort of way.

I can understand the point now - if you are willing to just go for depth without taking proper precautions then yes, parts of this forum - which consists of a number of experienced and skilled divers - could contribute to a dangerous attitude because of the depths these people routinely dive to. I haven't seen what I'd regard as any reckless posts (but there are alot of posts and I certainly haven't read them all). At the same time - you can't expect people to put caveats or disclaimers in every time they mention a deep dive.

Okane's cautionary tale is certainly well-taken. I think it is worth saying that before you push the envelope you should have studied alot of points of view on the subject - and aquired the knowlege and experience needed to properly take responsibility for your own attitude and decisions. Unfortunately people will allways see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear - maybe seeing that in yourself is part of what this is all about as well.
 

JasonWelbourne

New Member
Aug 17, 2004
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Coming from the other end of the spectrum, before this summer I had no experience with freediving. I was unable to find local instruction or community. I learned a little at a time day after day. I went diving weekly, and experimented with new ideas. Worst of all, I dove alone; always alone. The fear of it limited how far I would push myself. But gradually, my comfort level increased. I learned the frenzel. I dove away from lines. I dove away from "open water." I learned how to ignore my contractions. I learned how to distinguish them from hypoxia.

I can't agree with Okane's view. A community is a resource. It is up to an individual to define what is safe for themselves. Don't destroy yourself and then turn around and point the finger. Take responsibility for your own actions.

If I told someone of my experience as a freediver, and then they turned around and killed themselves by way of their own competitive spirit, that would not be my responsibility.

Certainly, it does raise concerns. After communicating breifly with the first local freediver I found, he busted his eardrum diving alone. And even though he didn't blame me, I still have to wonder if maybe I would do better to err on the side of caution with my opinions.

Conversely, the freediving community needs an FAQ covering all of the phases of development in extreme detail after the manner in which the Frenzel-Fattah Eq. DOC was written. There are many questions that I have been asking for some time which I still don't have clear answers to.

If there are other people willing to help with such a project, please come foward and let us all be organized together to accomplish this task.
 

jome

Well-Known Member
Jul 5, 2004
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The problem with FAQs is that the people who they are intended for never read them. The type of people that do read them, would get that info from somewhere anyway.

But at least it would make an easy automated answer for the most common questions, i.e "read the FAQ". The problem with that is that if the asker is a bit thin skinned, he will take that as an insult and be forever bitter to the Internet and turned to the dark side or whatever.

Hey, I know. How about a feature, that if a person with less then a predefined amount of Karma tries to create a new thread, the system checks the FAQ for similar topics and suggests to him that "have you read these? You still want to post? Are you absolutely sure?".

Anywho, I agree with both sides. There is a point where it is irresponsible to post and especially brag about things to impressionable minds. However, in the end, each person is responsible for them selves. At least as adults. And any sane person SHOULD KNOW, that not everything written in the Internet is god's truth. Actually, 99% of it is spam, porn or just other crap. So always take what you read with a grain of salt.

This forum is full of topics about risks, blackout, samba, hypoxic symptoms, horror stories etc. If someone chose to just read the ones about progress, training, success, records and decided to interpret that as "go deeper, go faster, go longer, go alone, risk life, hunt metres", I'm sorry to say the filter is in his own head.

Okane is absolutely right about one thing. Don't believe everything you read and don't relay only on the Internet as your "trainer". It's just usually much easier to get your point across without using phrases like "shithead liars", "stupid lies" and "dumb teenagers". You didn't have to do that and you should not be surprised if people are insulted. Also most people reading Internet formus have learned that the amount of actual information of a post is inversely propotional to the amount of capital letters, exlamation marks, question marks and swear words. You should avoid those to drive a point through, not endorse them. You could've just said "don't believe everything you read, don't dive alone, get training". People tend to react to being called shitheads.

For a beginner it can be very confusing and frustrating to read about 7 minute statics and dives to 50+ metres. But that does not make the information in this forum "stupid lies" or the persons discussing them irresponsible.
 
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Erik

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2001
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Originally posted by jome
Okane is absolutely right about one thing. Don't believe everything you read and don't relay only on the Internet as your "trainer". It's just usually much easier to get your point across without using phrases like "shithead liars", "stupid lies" and "dumb teenagers". You didn't have to do that and you should not be surprised if people are insulted. Also most people reading Internet formus have learned that the amount of actual information of a post is inversely propotional to the amount of capital letters, exlamation marks, question marks and swear words. You should avoid those to drive a point through, not endorse them. You could've just said "don't believe everything you read, don't dive alone, get training". People tend to react to being called shitheads.
.

Thank you, well said. I'd give you more karma but I can't. My main point was about social skills, which tend to be lacking on many other forums, but not here. It pisses me off to no end when people start flinging insults at people they don't have any idea about. Name one lying braggart on DB? Good luck, they don't last around here.
We're friends here. This ain't rec.scuba :duh
Cheers,
Erik Y.
 
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neshamah

CFD Group
Jun 2, 2003
535
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hola

How long is the journey?
Good topic.
The length of the journey depends on you. It's true there are times that we have seen freediving as complicated or too simple -
we see supernatural methods - unfinished - full of fiction - and mysticism

But I adapt myself to Rudi's words when he said "Daniel freediving is more physic logic than
anything else and I base my training on that "

I also adapt myself to Ronal's words, member of the Venezuelan team when he said, "Daniel you have
to create a base first, the same as you build a house, brick by brick"

And the fulfillment was given by David Lee when he said, "From now you will do this - you will make a difficulty
scale form 0 to 100 % and will choose your pulse for your training and write everything down on a piece of paper

At the same time I thought like a doctor would do - take the pulse to recognize your body

in reality each one of us in freediving must know how our body functions in certain distances. The key is to know
one shouldn't do the maximum nor the minimum depending on their capability nor go further without having
created a certain base for such goal.

If your difficulty distance has been created in a scale of 0-----------50----------100 if its closer to the 0
it means it will be very easy and if it gets closer to 100 you will be doing the maximum, none is good
to keep close to 50 is the best.
The same measurement of difficulty will tell you what to do and when is time to create the base
in a couple of meters forward
there we see the balance, even life teaches us to have a balance

All this without taking into consideration that you need for a better development of basic things
that we need to learn like diving techniques - body positions - streamline and relaxation
and the important factor of how to take air

To do things quickly and beyond our capability is a sign of danger - and not doing anything
with what we have is also a danger

exists a limit physically talking ( don't believe in notlimit)
God established this
The tuttle will never run like a lynx but they will both reach the goal
work with what you have
 

naiad

Apnea Carp
Supporter
Oct 11, 2003
2,897
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Originally posted by jome
And any sane person SHOULD KNOW, that not everything written in the Internet is god's truth. Actually, 99% of it is spam, porn or just other crap. So always take what you read with a grain of salt.

This forum is full of topics about risks, blackout, samba, hypoxic symptoms, horror stories etc.
Deeperblue is probably one of the best things to be found on the Internet!

Many of us are willing to share bad experiences as well as good ones, and I don't think there are too many posts which actually encourage people to do things which they shouldn't.

Jome, I tried to give you some karma but it wouldn't let me.

Lucia
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
3,294
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Originally posted by samdive
as several of us have already said, you CANNOT learn to freedive over the internet.
Sam

I learned how to freedive over the internet, and I never took any courses, and eventually I set several canadian records and a world record. So watch what you say.
 
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Kars

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2003
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Hi Eric, have you also learned the rescue skills, etc. over the internet?

I imagine it may be possible, but to an average joe I think it's much better to follow a course learning these in one weekend than learning this important skill by reading and maybe in combination with some trial and error.

Some things are better to be learned in practice, instead -only- of paper.


I think it's essential that freedivers learn the rescueskills wel, because you, your buddy, the sports reputation and future depent on it.


Love, peace and water!
Carlos
 

efattah

Well-Known Member
Mar 2, 2001
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I have never been a fan of freediving courses, because at least two of the main groups which offer courses teach a breathing pattern which is, in fact, a type of strong hyperventilation, even though they tell the students never to hyperventilate. What people don't realize is that ANY breathing pattern, if done for long enough, is hyperventilating. Then, because of these breathing patterns, most students make 'huge' jumps in their performance in the course, thinking that it was due to all sorts of technique improvements, when in fact it was just due to overbreathing -- this is also evidenced by the large number of sambas and blackouts which occur at the same courses, because of the same breathing pattern.

I often find myself in the position to 'un-teach' many things which people learn at so-called courses.

Not all freediving courses are bad though... but to tell someone 'just take a course' is like playing russian roulette.
 

JasonWelbourne

New Member
Aug 17, 2004
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I share Eric's view on freediving courses and extend it to education in general.

I have spent my life teaching myself what I felt inclined to learn. Computer programming and retail are two fieds in which a degree can not be equated to sucess.

But different people learn in different ways. I have throughout my life been self taught in everything I seriously pursued. That is my way, and in no way is it applicable to all of humanity. Nor is it an indicator of primary ability. I am self taught because I am so combative to authority, not because I am too good to learn from someone who genuinely knows what they are talking about.

I also think that driving hundreds of miles and paying between hundreds and thousands of dollars are a enormous waste of money considering the finite and ultimately already commited resources that I have.
 

Kars

Well-Known Member
Oct 24, 2003
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Eric I think that the breathing patters can indeed lead to hyperventilation. But I also think it's a instructor's duty to learn people techniques, the Free part of the freediving, instead of giving them a PB.
I think the samba's and BO's are more of an attitude thing.

And not only the attitude of the teacher, but equally of the student.
Like wise man said, 'if you are a student choose your master wel, if you are a master choose your student wel.'

But the rescuepoint still remains, it's hard to practise that with no buddy. So if you're about to take a course, try to focus on that :)
Most of the other skills can be learned from your buddies over here :D

And Jason I have about the same 'problem' with authority. And some 'authorities' do not like 'difficult' questions.

Ciao,

Carlos
 
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