How long to fast before STA?

[osksa]

Hi, I am trying to figure out how long to fast before STA for optimal performance. So far I have found this study: Effects of fasting and carbohydrate consumption on voluntary resting apnea duration
which compares breatholds with no fasting with 14 and 18 hour fasting:

So it seems like fasting 14 hours is better than not fasting, and 18 hours is better than 14. (And eating carbs just before STA is bad, but that was no big surprise.).

Then there is two threads here on Deeper blue: Oldest one from 2005 is https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/fasting-for-statics.64207/ where Eric Fattah says

I tried a 6-day fast while training for Monaco. My statics decreased by about 35 seconds.

Then there is a second thread from 2008: https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/fasting-for-static.76074/ Here an Erik says that Fattah has concluded 24 hours to be optimal. Fattah himself says

As I mentioned in an old thread, I did a 6-day fast in 2005 while training for Monaco. My statics got severely worse during the fast, until I took citric acid to counter the uric-acid level, in which case my statics rose a bit, but still less than before the fast.

However, when I came OFF the fast, I set my all time personal best in static which I still have never broken.

However, a 6 days seems pretty heavy on the body. Partly due to the body breakdown, and difficulty to cope with daily life. Partly since I compete in competitions with multiple disciplines, and I don't think it is possible to perform well in dynamic apnea after 6 days of fasting. But this is just guessing. =) I am hoping that it is possible to get almost all the benefits with a shorter fast...

So perhaps I have two separate questions: Which is the optimal time to fast before a STA only competition, and what is optimal for a STA + Dynamic competition? Have the knowledge advanced since these threads in 2005/2008? Are there any relevant research other than what i linked? Did anybody else do experiments with different fasting?

 

[DerekB]

I perform my act with Cirque 7 times a week. on sunday I have 2 shows. This has given me plenty of time to figure out how soon I can tolerate eating before my act. I've tried everything from 2 hours before up to not eating the entire day. What I discovered was 7-8 hours with a long nap ( 2-3 hour nap) yielded the best results for me.

Because of a double show on sundays. I prefer to eat between shows (2.5 hours before my next act). 2 bananas and a vegan protein shake. It doesn't effect the breath holds at all.

 

[DerekB]

I also feel like the 14-18 hours or 6 day fast might be a little extreme. If i'm correct, the point of the fasting is to slow the metabolism and not waste energy digesting food?

 

[osksa]

Thank you for your reply! In the show, how long breathholds do you perform? Are they pure static breathholds, or do you move? Yes I agree, the point is twofold: 1) Digestion consumes oxgen. So no digestion. And 2) Fasting slows metabolism.

 

[J Campbell]

Also, just having food in your belly feels bad when breath holding - belching, churning, gas, that full feeling.

 

[DerekB]

Thank you for your reply! In the show, how long breathholds do you perform? Are they pure static breathholds, or do you move? Yes I agree, the point is twofold: 1) Digestion consumes oxgen. So no digestion. And 2) Fasting slows metabolism.

3:07, one inhale 1:44, There is a moderate amount of moving. More than a static, less than a no fins dynamic. I would compare it a little heavier than a FIM .

 

[MarcinB]

In my case it's at least 6h, and 8h is optimal. Of course it depends on how hevay was the meal and what was its composition. After pizza even 8h is not enough In general, thermic effect of food should be gone completely after ~10h, no matter what you ate. If I compete in STA and DYN on the same day, I eat a banana just after STA, if the delay between starts is at least 3-4h. If it's 6h then I add a second banana or some bread with jam or something like that.

According to studies short-term fasting (1-4 days) significantly increases resting oxygen consumption. If you want to improve your performance in STA by fasting, it has to be much longer (2-3 weeks).

 

[HLanger1955]

For me 8-10 hours works fine, a light meal for lunch, maybe some an apple in the afternoon. My pool sessions start at 9.00 p.m. With a heavy fasting I'd probably feel too weak and uncomfortable.

 

[osksa]

@MarcinB : Do you have an example of such studies? Seems strange, since the study in my first post foun that 18 hours was bettern than 14 hours?
We all agree that digestion must be complete.
@HLanger1955 : Ok thanx. But when you talk about pool session, it sounds like your weekly training. I'm looking for the fast that you have found out to work best for a maximal STA in a competition setting.

 

[MarcinB]

If you look at the standard deviations you'll see that there is really no difference between 14 and 18h fast. In the study I mentioned, the first measurement of oxygen consumption was done after 24h of fast. Her's the link to free full version of the paper: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1511.long

 

[HLanger1955]

@MarcinB : Do you have an example of such studies? Seems strange, since the study in my first post foun that 18 hours was bettern than 14 hours?
We all agree that digestion must be complete.
@HLanger1955 : Ok thanx. But when you talk about pool session, it sounds like your weekly training. I'm looking for the fast that you have found out to work best for a maximal STA in a competition setting.

Yes, I was talkingt about weekly training sessons. Nonetheless, I wonder whether that makes a difference (at least for my feeling..)

 

[osksa]

@MarcinB Now we are talking! That was a really interesting article! Read the abstract, seems like it would be no good to fast longer than 24 hours. But that does not contradict the study in the first post, right? 18 hours can still be better than 14? I don't really get what you mean that there is no difference if the SD is considered. For maximal breakpoint, I see in table 2 that the 14 hour group had 171 ± 32 seconds and the 18 hour group had 177 ± 31. An average of 177 s is still longer than 171 even if there is a variation in 30 s between subjects?

@HLanger1955 No, that is true. If we are talking about feeling. I am more looking for limits of STA: Like if someone did STA:s on different fasting times and blacked out at different times. But I still appreciate your input. Thanx.

 

[MarcinB]

I don't really get what you mean that there is no difference if the SD is considered. For maximal breakpoint, I see in table 2 that the 14 hour group had 171 ± 32 seconds and the 18 hour group had 177 ± 31. An average of 177 s is still longer than 171 even if there is a variation in 30 s between subjects?

From the statistical point of view there is no difference. In other words, the difference is not statistically significant which means that it's most likely by chance.

 

[osksa]

Sorry, I still don't get it how you draw that conclusion. Where do you look in the report?

 

[HLanger1955]

Guess, it is a pure matter of statistics. Unless you have many samples (records) a difference being the fifth of the variation is likely to be unsignificant. Being freedivers a small comunity of particular individuals I'm afraid that sample size is indeed poor

 

[osksa]

Ok, a friend just pointed out that they only present p-values for some findings in the abstract, and that these does not include the difference between 14 and 18 hours?

@HLanger1955 The sample is small, but they still get results with low p values indicating that is not probable that the results are pure chance. As I understand.

 

[efattah]

I tried a 21-day fast and my static increased from 7:30 to 10:06. However the after effects were very hard on my body, not recommended....

 

[efattah]

Here is the report of my 21 day fasting experiment:

 

[J Campbell]

Eric, "the after effects were hard on your body" - do you mean the effects of the fasting or the long breath hold?

 

[efattah]

Eric, "the after effects were hard on your body" - do you mean the effects of the fasting or the long breath hold?

I meant the effect on my body. In particular, the worst impact of the fast was absolute devastation to my gut bacteria balance. I had a massive imbalance of bad gut bacteria for many months after. It appears that fasting for long periods kills the good bacteria, but some bad bacteria can hibernate and still survive. So when it is over, you have only bad gut bacteria.