How much harder is it to freedive in cold water?

[samdive]

AIDA have recently introduced the notion of reduced course performance requirements for dives conducted in adverse conditions

Their current definition of adverse conditions states that "these include cold water with thermo clines below 10 degrees, extremely strong current or bad visibility"

The change in requirement is a reduction of 5m in the depth requirement for students on the Instructor Course.

I'd say most of us think the water is cold well before 10C, so I have put my poll based on a surface temp of 18C or less for the cold/warm breakdown

What do you think? Is 5m about right? too much? too little? How much does your PB differ between warm and cold water, if at all.

I'll start the ball rolling - my PB in CW is currently 4m deeper in warm water than in UK lake water. So, I think that 5m is about right - but I'd like some other views!

Thanks

sam

 

[Fondueset]

I only just started measuring my dives - and my times have been improving steadily so I can't compare to last winter. I definitely do my best times at just the begining of a chill. Once it sets in though they start to drop off. I couldn't say for depth.

 

[island_sands]

AIDA have recently introduced the notion of reduced course performance requirements for dives conducted in adverse conditions

Their current definition of adverse conditions states that "these include cold water with thermo clines below 10 degrees, extremely strong current or bad visibility"

The change in requirement is a reduction of 5m in the depth requirement for students on the Instructor Course.

I'd say most of us think the water is cold well before 10C, so I have put my poll based on a surface temp of 18C or less for the cold/warm breakdown

What do you think? Is 5m about right? too much? too little? How much does your PB differ between warm and cold water, if at all.

I'll start the ball rolling - my PB in CW is currently 4m deeper in warm water than in UK lake water. So, I think that 5m is about right - but I'd like some other views!

Thanks

sam

hey sam
I challenge you to a 35metre dive in the currents of Fujairah

On some days we cannot even get to 25metres, it's too strong. So if do, we say that you would have probably obtained another 5 metres on your dive if there were no current. Along with the vis and the jellyfish.... the vis of your lakes would be manageable in comparison. I can dive deeper in cold water, the water gets too hot here and i get too sleepy.

 

[samdive]

hey I know - you want to try diving in the sea here - steaming spring tides, the line is usually at 45 degrees - and yes we have jellies too!!

I'd agree that current poses for more problems than vis or cold - but seeing as most people would not conduct a training course in significant current (unless no other option) , I don't think that really needs to be included in this discussion.

I was thinking more of a straight comparison in currentless, jelly fish less conditions between somewhere like Dahab and somewhere like a lake in the UK or Canada....

S

 

[island_sands]

ah ok
just we dont have much choice here, we just get on with it!

i do find that colder water treats me better, the warm stuff just makes me oozy and sleepy. my breath hold is longer in cold water as well

AIDA have recently introduced the notion of reduced course performance requirements for dives conducted in adverse conditions

Their current definition of adverse conditions states that "these include cold water with thermo clines below 10 degrees, extremely strong current or bad visibility"

The change in requirement is a reduction of 5m in the depth requirement for students on the Instructor Course.

Edit (as i read the original post again): INMO, Dahab could not be defined as a location too cold or severe to warrant reducing the performance requirement as you mention (unless their thermoclines reach that temperature), as its hardly adverse compared to places like Canada, UAE, and if you doing it in the North Sea then yes, definitely!

I dont think it's a notion on AIDA's part, I think it's a good decision. We have come up breathless many times as currents can hit you here out of the blue. In the summer here the surface of the water is 38 degs, once you hit 20 metres the thermocline drops like a stone to 25 and as you get deeper up to 19deg. When you're concentrating on a dive it's a hard knock. In winter it's even colder. Surface temp 19deg and 10deg or below on deep dives. Visibility generally here is 5-10metres and in some seasons 2metres. the best vis is the spring where you can get 30metres vis but that happens maybe 2 days in a month. We also have oil slicks to contend with but that's another story....

Is it that you dont agree with the reduction Sam?

 

[monkeyhatfork]

I am by no means a veteren, but for me low vis is always the bigger problem, the lake 5min from my house is very warm can reach 90 degrees summer but vis is terrible, sometimes under 5feet, I'll usually opt for the hour drive to high altitude sierra lakes like tahoe which are freezing cold (direct snowmelt) but have 100ft+ vis, not only for performance but for personal enjoyment, diving just isn't much fun if you cant see anything, and with the propulsion you get with a mono, in really poor vis I'm always scarred i'm going to barrel into the side of a rock or something, there's just more anxiety in the low vis+ those following on the surface sometimes can't see me.

 

[samdive]

I TOTALLY agree with the reduction, I can't believe we didn't put it in before.

For sure, teaching an AIDA ** course in cold, dark UK water, it is a hell of a lot harder to get a student to 16m than to get them to do the same dive in Dahab (which would not qualify for any reduction).

Only problem is that, so far, the reduction is only in place for requirements at instructor level. I'd like it put in across all the courses - but no reply so far on that from the EC

Personally, cold makes a difference to me (makes my dive worse because shivering interrupts relaxation so much) but bad vis actually helps. No matter how many times I tell myself not to, I look down and if I can see the plate miles away I chicken out... luckily where we dive, when you can see it, normally you can get to it pretty quickly! So I need to dive in murky warm water - where is that???


For students though, I think bad vis can be pretty scary

S

 

[Jon]

I think it depends on surface temps and air temps as well.

The lakes by me are always 4C on the bottom, but in the suffer time the surface warms up enough to dive in a 3mm jumpsuit. You dive down into the cold for a couple minutes at most and then get to go back up and warm up again.

The problems come in when the surface temps drop and your cold all the time. This means thicker suits and bigger weightbelts. It's the thicker suits and bigger belts that cause the probelm more than the water temperature.

Vis can also effect things. I have had scuba students back out from courses because they didn't believe people actually dove in our local waters- they were certified on holiday where it was warm and clear and became quite upset when I was going to make them dive in water with less than 2 meters of vis. rofl

Jon

 

[monkeyhatfork]

samdive -- The warm murky lake in question is lake folsom(think folsom prison) Northern california but thier are many other warm murky lakes in the area. I have the opposite(visual) problem you have, If I don't have lots of pretty stuff to look at it means too much time inside my head. Jon brought up a good point about surface conditions, in my case since I prefer the clear hight altitude spots wind is always a bigger concern than temp, on a nice glassy day its super easy but if the wind kicks up and you have to deal with a lot of chop at the surface, the thin air can drain you pretty quick, don't notice this same drain at sea level.

 

[colt.45]

for me viz really makes a difference in depth but not in time i find that cold water will shorten my times more than warn will i find that my holds are best if the water is somewhere around 70F

 

[laminar]

Sam, I agree with Jon. It's the surface temp that makes the most difference for achieving depth. I think a thermocline is only really a barrier for newbies when it is severe, like going from a warm surface temp to 4-6 C. But if the surface is 10C or less, then you either cool down way to fast or have to wear too much neoprene.

Also, I would say that for temperate waters (surface temp), the different zones of lessening comfort would be 17-21+, 12-15, 9-11 and anything below 8 C is exponentially colder with each degree C less.

Oh, I forgot to ask, are you talking about diving with or without a suit?

 

[laminar]

5m seems about right for me, especially if it's based on surface temp, and not necessarily on thermoclines, unless they are very close to the surface. Whew, a lot of variables there.

 

[jome]

I think rather than a constant difference, I would name a percentage, ie. the deeper the dives in total, the bigger the difference.

The cold and dark (which I have experience with, not so much currents) is something one can train and get used to, but especially for newbies the difference can be quite significant.

I (speaking as a private person) personally think that it is a good idea to lower the requirements a bit for adverse conditions. It is especially important for the first few courses where the students may not have the best possible gear yet and the anxiety and stress is high, being their first time and all. I think 8 meters is pretty manageable in any conditions, but for example 16 has proven a bit tricky sometimes in bad conditions. And it's not just about getting there, but doing it so comfortably that you could actually consider doing it again...

For me it's not the cold so much that get's to me, you can pretty well protect against that with a decent suit. But the utter black darkness, and the thought that you can't see your buddies and they cannot see you, you cannot see what's below or around you and all you have to communicate is the line...It's kind of cool too, being in that "void", but it does definitely shave of a few meters from the performance.

If I'd have to pick a number I'd say 10%, and as far as the course requirements go, maybe round it up so for AIDA* you'd have 1m off, AIDA ** 2 meters and so on...

 

[samdive]

maybe the difference should be based on the suit you need - it is a lot harder in 5ml, socks and gloves than 3ml alone, and even easier with no suit.... I know a couple of people who will only compete in water that they can wear a 3ml in...

but then you get the Canadian no-suit-nutters : )

 

[Stavros]

I TOTALLY agree with the reduction, I can't believe we didn't put it in before.

For sure, teaching an AIDA ** course in cold, dark UK water, it is a hell of a lot harder to get a student to 16m than to get them to do the same dive in Dahab (which would not qualify for any reduction).

Only problem is that, so far, the reduction is only in place for requirements at instructor level. I'd like it put in across all the courses - but no reply so far on that from the EC

Personally, cold makes a difference to me (makes my dive worse because shivering interrupts relaxation so much) but bad vis actually helps. No matter how many times I tell myself not to, I look down and if I can see the plate miles away I chicken out... luckily where we dive, when you can see it, normally you can get to it pretty quickly! So I need to dive in murky warm water - where is that???


For students though, I think bad vis can be pretty scary

S

Hmmm ... my opinion on the matter of diving conditions during a course is that it is up to the instructor to decide not to conduct a given open water session or the entire course if the conditions are so unfavourable as to significantly affect the students' performances.

This is the reason why here in Greece most instructors do not organise courses between December and March (and we are talking of water temp of 13-14C nothing as arctic as 8-9C).

I think more important than the actual performances the students are able to achieve during the course is the enjoyment they are meant to get out of it... and I think it is quite hard for people (especially an inexperienced diver doing a 1* or 2*) to enjoy themselves getting in 9C water which drops to 5-6C a few meters deeper with a visibility under 1m...


I therefore believe it is not in the best interests of the students (and their enjoyment of the course) or the AIDA education system in general if we start introducing "enviromental conditions performance reductions" ...

The way I look at it if a person is meant to dive to 32m for a 4* diving to 25-26m is not the same no matter what the conditions are... (the bottom line is that this student will not have dived to the required depth)

Cheers Stavros

 

[jome]

Hmmm ... my opinion on the matter of diving conditions during a course is that it is up to the instructor to decide not to conduct a given open water session or the entire course if the conditions are so unfavourable as to significantly affect the students' performances.

Well that was sort of the whole point I guess. Conditions are very different in Greece and UK or Finland.

For us, 14 degrees is luxury and there is only 1-2 months when the surface water temp is above 20c. Below 10m it is never above 9c or so.

So should we just not educate people here? I don't think that is an option. Then the other option is that we simply gut it out, like so far. But it's hard creating pleasant experiences and when the experience is too extreme, it only attracts "extreme" people, which I don't like at all.

The third option is that we simply take it slower and accept the fact that maybe one or two weekends is not sufficient to break in a complete newbie into freediving in these conditions...If time was of limitless supply I guess that would be ideal for the student.

For obvious reasons, I favor the option of having a little room to manouvre with "adverse conditions". Defining those conditions is a bit different story (so that the option is not misused)

 

[sanso]

I propose thinking of adverse conditions as an extra (and free ) chance to learn more and gain even more experience than one would without them.

If AIDA starts introducing exceptions here, the discussions will never end and the rules and regulations will will grow to match the size of the Enzyclopedia Britannica in no time. No one will be able to calculate the benefits and disadvantages for all conditions anyway. They even differ for each diver!
If conditions suck badly, I'd rather trust the instructor's judgment to assess if (and how much) a freediver was affected (negatively) by them. An instructor will know if someone who did 14m in a current would be able to do 16m without that current.
Let's not try to make freediving an exact science. The open water, being what it is, won't allow us to, anyway.

Being certified by AIDA says that one can do at least whatever the certificate requires, most people excel in some disciplines anyway. I someone can do it in <enter favourite adverse condition here> - Good for them! And if someone needs a very exact assessment of their capabilities, they need to go to a dive tank or some other controlled environment anyway.

P.S.: I'm fairly new to the sport, got most of my freediving education so far in cold sweetwater, and my view isn't the typical one it seems. The above rambling might not even be worth the two cents..

 

[jome]

I agree that the instructor should have the responsibility for making the desicion. Also agree with the problematics of trying to define everything just so. So maybe it could be just "according to instructors assessment of the situation the performance should be within 10% of the required". And then list that conditions where this may apply include extraordinarily bad viz, cold, strong wind or current etc...In other words, give the instructors the freedom to exercise common sense in exceptional circumstances (which they should be doing in any case).

 

[samdive]

Hmmm ... my opinion on the matter of diving conditions during a course is that it is up to the instructor to decide not to conduct a given open water session or the entire course if the conditions are so unfavourable as to significantly affect the students' performances.

This is the reason why here in Greece most instructors do not organise courses between December and March (and we are talking of water temp of 13-14C nothing as arctic as 8-9C).

so, we can never teach in the UK then?

just seen Jome's reply, exactly what I wanted to say - both posts above

It IS harder to dive 16m in 12c, low viz but that doesn't mean it's impossible/dangerous/teaching in such conditions should be banned - that's why I agree the requirements could be slight reduced for poorer conditions

AND of course, as Jome says, if conditions are unsafe, the instructor uses judgement to cancel the session. I, for example, would not teach someone who wanted to do a course between Dec and March in open water unless they had all the right exposure gear.

the idea behind the AIDA reduction (and my views on it) were never that it would permit diving/teaching in an unsafe environment, just recognise that some are more challenging than others

 

[fcallagy]

Scuba has the same issue but doesn,t make any allowance for it. I think people who do their open water in warm clear water should at least be made to do a shake down/familiarisation when diving in cold and murkybut this doesn't usually happen afaik. I have dived in Dahab and Uk and didn't find any disceranable difference in my depths 32 Dahab 31uk and 29 Irl. I was progressing from in any case and was in Dahab in March where it was very comfortable for me if not for Linda who thought it cold.
I think the instructor should be allowed make a call on it on the day. So many things can happen with ears etc on a certain day or the student may have been doing FIM on day one to 20m but cant manage cw to 16 on day 2 due to ears or cold. I think the instructor should be allowed to make a judgement call on the day of the course but within obvious parameters and maybe with a reason supplied.