How much harder is it to freedive in cold water?

[BennyB]

I think it's an equalising issue more than anything else.

A week or 2 before the 2006 Worlds in Hurghada I had done a PB which was in cold water (less than 18 at surface, 10'ish at depth). Equalisation was my limiting factor, I was never really hypoxic. When I got to Hurghada my dive philosophy was to go as far as I could equalise then turn and come back. My first couple of dives were 2-4m more than the cold water dives, then as the week progressed I put 11m on my cold water PB. At a guess i'd say that 5-6m of this was due to warmer water being easier to equalise in, the rest was a product of repetitive diving (training, technique, mouthfill etc).

I haven't been diving up to those WC depths since then, but i've been diving in pretty cold conditions and not very often so this is a bit understandable.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[monkeyhatfork]

I'm taking a course in the near future and so I e-mailed PFI with this similar topic(cold/murky vs. warm/clear) several weeks ago, because I wan't to get the most out of the course I take. Mandy(PFI) said that they do tend to get better performances from students at locations like Grand Cayman or Kona compaired to some of the colder darker locations.

 

[monkeyhatfork]

The basic decision I'm trying to make when asking this questions is- Do I go with a course in Monterey Bay (much cheaper as I live in the area), or pay much more in travel costs for Kona or Cayman which would more or less insure a cenrtain comfort level in the water.

 

[amihov]

If you are planing to dive in a cold murky water, then it makes more sense to take the course in cold water. But if you are going to dive in a warm clear water go to kona. In warm Claire water diving is much easier then in cold water. You don't have to wearer a think wetsuite or weight belt. It is obviouse way you will get better performance. All the competions are done in a nice clear and warm water just because it is so much easier.

 

[cdavis]

Very interesting discussion on an equally tricky subject. My 2 cents:

If you are talking newbies or seriously skilled divers, it seems like a no brainer that better conditions, warmer, etc. will result in better performance and modifying requirements for severe conditions makes sense. However, if you are talking fairly experienced divers of modest skill (me), say 30-40 m CW, I'm not sure that's correct. For example, at Jon's Freedive-a-paloosa, the first time I'd ever worn a good suit or been in water anywhere near 4 C, I was doing deeper dives than in Cayman with almost no suit, only a few weeks before. For me, Wisconsin would certainly qualify as extreme conditions. Seems like it depends entirely on who is diving and what the conditions are, very individual. I don't see any good way to codify a rule for such a thing. Best leave it alone or leave it to the judgment of the instructor.

Connor

 

[m2b]

On Saturday evening I posted a QUITE LONG message about a situation that I have been going through and was looking for help. Well Sam, you helped me out BIG TIME!!! Thank you, and you didn't even reply to my message.

I stumbled into this message last night and as I was reading the replies that had been posted thus far, they confirmed my original thought as to why I was having the problem with my diving that I have been noticing. It's the bad vis that has been causing me to back out of the dives just before I hit bottom, right as I get into the "black hole". Granted there were several other questions all on the weird water temperatures that I have noticed happening around my area in the past week that I still don't have the answer for, but oh well.

After reading this message and the replies everybody had left as of last night, I pulled out my pipe goggles as well as the aluminum foil and duct tape. WHAT you ask!!! Yep, I made it so I can't see out the goggles, PERIOD! Yeah, I can see a little light that manages to filter through but I can see nothing else, no shapes, no nothing.

This afternoon I took them to the lake and went blind diving for the first time. I kept the weight belt off so I would be positively bouyant, purely for safety and instead of diving in the 28-35 foot water I had been diving in over the past couple of weeks I dropped back to 15 foot water instead.

The first dive went surprisingly smooth. The only problem that I notice now since I added the aluminum foil and duct tape to the goggles, all on the outside and only covering the lenses, is that one of the two lenses is leaking water like a sieve. If never used to leak at all, STRANGE??????? I don't have to even dive down to get it to leak, I just have to stick my head in the water and start the breathe up. Granted this helps the blind diving factor quite a bit, it also helps the disorienting factor as well. I figured with everything against me I wouldn't make it down to 15 feet before I backed out and headed for the surface. When my hands hit the bottom I was very surprised.

I decided to move out to a little deeper water and put myself into 22 foot deep water. This time the dive ended like most any of the dives have recently at Goshen Ocean...I backed out. This time though it wasn't the murky water but instead it was because I felt like I was diving down SIDEWAYS. It felt like I had went from diving vertically to diving at an angle, maybe even horiztonally. My mind took off and ran away with it and made me back out and head up for the surface. I figure I made it down 18-20 feet before I bailed. I do wonder what my body position was at the time when I bailed.

Since I don't dive for the views underwater I just dive for the pleasure of being in and under the water I plan to stick with blind diving for quite a while. I don't have to see anything under the water to enjoy myself. Yes, it does have its added risks, then again...so does driving a car and I don't wear pads or a helmet when I drive my car and I could easily be thrown from a car and have my brain splattered all over the pavement in a car accident...so why worry about the added risks with freediving. I figure I will get myself very use to diving without the aid of visual sight and be very comfortable doing it under any circumstances including being below bouyancy before I ever take the duct tape and aluminum foil off the goggles. It isn't all that hard to make yourself bouyant at 15 feet, heck even 10 feet. It can all be done quite safely, if you just think about it for a while.

The more comfortable you are diving under bad condition, ie cold temp, bad vis, current, etc, the more comfortable you will be diving under good conditions. It's all a matter of adjusting to the conditions that exist at the time/location you are diving, and nothing else. The more experience you get diving under rough conditions the more comfortable you will diving in rough conditions which will naturally improve your performance in both cases.

You can manipulate the rules to provide leeway for courses held in rougher conditions. Water temp is one thing that is a WEE BIT hard to control, but visibility isn't. You can take someone and put them in zero mm visibility without even trying. I think diving to a certain depth under zero visibilty should be a requirement. That certain depth should be below bouyancy. Since visibility is a controllable condition it should be controlled and taken into consideration. Not every lake or pond in the world have 1000 foot visibility, LMAO!!!!!

OH, I see those FLAMES coming up on the horizon, I better run for cover. I'm about to be blasted for this post.

Ryan

 

[Stavros]

so, we can never teach in the UK then?

just seen Jome's reply, exactly what I wanted to say - both posts above

It IS harder to dive 16m in 12c, low viz but that doesn't mean it's impossible/dangerous/teaching in such conditions should be banned - that's why I agree the requirements could be slight reduced for poorer conditions

AND of course, as Jome says, if conditions are unsafe, the instructor uses judgement to cancel the session. I, for example, would not teach someone who wanted to do a course between Dec and March in open water unless they had all the right exposure gear.

the idea behind the AIDA reduction (and my views on it) were never that it would permit diving/teaching in an unsafe environment, just recognise that some are more challenging than others

Hey Sam I understand your concerns but I think we are facing the following facts:

You have locations like the UK were an open water session is done in cold murky waters - the conditions might be suitable for "enjoyable" diving 5-6 months a year .
In Scandinavian countries an open water session is done in cold waters with possible rough conditions (wind - swell etc) - good conditions might only be available only 4-5 months a year
In Mediterranean countries like Greece or Italy you might get good diving conditions 8-9 months a year but you still might have to deal with rough seas etc.
And then you have places like Egypt were you get excellent conditions 12 months a year great visibility etc...

On top of that at the same dive site you have different conditions during the year...so diving in the UK or the North sea or even Greece during summer months is easier than in the winter...

Soooooooo were are we at?

Teaching in a location like Egypt is usually done in optimal conditions ... so the AIDA performance requirements should always be met.

Then lets see Greece in the winter - I decide to hold a course in the winter (which I do not) and the sea is at 12-13C with 4-5m visibility and rough seas with currents...should the performance requirements not be reduced compared to Egypt?

Looking at the UK in the winter you have 9-10C water with minimum visibility and nasty temp bellow 10m ... performance requirements should be reduced even more...

Then you have Kike deciding to hold a course in the North pole and you have an ambient temp of -30 and a sea temp of -2... what should the performance requirements be there? (the names - locations mentioned at this post are not based on real life :t. No animals were hurt during this postrofl)

I know these are extreme examples but I am presenting them as situations that we might be facing IF AIDA decides to have "flexible" performance requirements.

Another side of the issue is: Let us consider a student doing a 2* course in a cold country in the winter...the depth requirement goes from 16m to (lets say) 11-12m...then he comes to Greece to do a 3*...and he has to do 24m...don't you think that is a huge jump for someone to have to make? (think primarily of the mental side of it not the physical which will probably not be an issue)


My bottom line? if we start introducing "flexible" performance requirements in AIDA courses it does not do a lot to promote the credibility of the education system (If you do the course in Egypt you have to dive to 24m if in Greece then it is 22 if it is in the UK in the summer it is 21m and if it is Norway in the winter it is 19m !?!?!?!?:head)

Especially for the Instructor level courses I have to say that if you want to be an instructor you have to be able to meet the performance requirements (which are relatively low anyway for nowadays freediving performance levels) no mater what the conditions... You should be able to do a 32m dive in 31C water with no suit and at 9C with a 7mm on...a 3:30 static in a quite private pool or at a YMCA pool with a water polo team training next to you...if you cannot then how do you expect to be able to teach others in the future...


What am I suggesting? One set of universal performance requirements for AIDA courses... if conditions are so bad that the instructor feels the students will not be able to meet the performance requirements then maybe he/she should reconsider holding the course at that particular time of year/location. (I know it might mean only 6 months of open water courses in the UK and 8 months in Greece but I feel it is in the students' best interests and enjoyment and I believe it is worth it )



(just my 2cents)

Cheers Stavros

 

[samdive]

Especially for the Instructor level courses I have to say that if you want to be an instructor you have to be able to meet the performance requirements (which are relatively low anyway for nowadays freediving performance levels) no mater what the conditions... You should be able to do a 32m dive in 31C water with no suit and at 9C with a 7mm on...a 3:30 static in a quite private pool or at a YMCA pool with a water polo team training next to you...if you cannot then how do you expect to be able to teach others in the future...

I agree with you Stavros on the instructor levels - and really, on the whole thing. After all, I led the implementation of the courses initially and at that time, did not propose any variations on standards based on conditions.

However - the issue has now come up as the Education Commission has put in different performance levels for instructor candidates based on conditions and it only seems fair to feed that through the rest of the levels. I could be cynical and say that I know certain members of the EC might not quite have reached the levels they put in, and this variation means that they at least qualify themselves! but I do really believe it is based on us all having got a bit more experience of teaching the courses.

Personally I have taught in the UK and in the Red Sea and know a huge number of freedivers who have dived both in warm and cold water. Based on the people I have taught and the others I know, I'd say a 5m reduction for cold water/bad viz would be fair. I would be confident that anyone I had signed off as a 2 Star freediver who had achieved 11m in cold water/bad vis would comfortably reach 16m within a few dives if they headed to the tropics. Equally if they took 2 star here and 3 star with you in the Greek summer, I'm sure they wouldn't struggle with the transition from 11m to 24m, any more than they would have struggled from 16m to 24m

Incidentally the scuba analogy is incorrect. Scuba courses do not require the same max depth whether in cold/warm/low vis. A max depth is in place but so is a minimum depth and instructors make the call based on conditions. I would not, for example, take someone on an Advanced Open Water Deep dive without much dive experience to 30m in the UK, I just have to take them below 18m and usually call it at 22-25m depending on conditions (current, bottom composition, water movement, vis, temp). In the Red Sea, 30m would usually be fine.

Hope someone from the EC is monitoring this thread as apparently the discussions are underway at the moment - we will see what they decide!

S

 

[naiad]

After reading this message and the replies everybody had left as of last night, I pulled out my pipe goggles as well as the aluminum foil and duct tape. WHAT you ask!!! Yep, I made it so I can't see out the goggles, PERIOD! Yeah, I can see a little light that manages to filter through but I can see nothing else, no shapes, no nothing.

Since I don't dive for the views underwater I just dive for the pleasure of being in and under the water I plan to stick with blind diving for quite a while. I don't have to see anything under the water to enjoy myself.

That doesn't sound very safe to me - getting disorientated could have serious consequences. Hope you are diving with a buddy.

 

[flying_spanner]

Here in New Zealand, South Island, East coast. the current predominantly comes up from the south. Water Temps range from 8 - 12 deg C. Divers here are used to it. I still find it bloody cold. Even worse is when the air temp is less than the water temp and you don't get to warm up once out of the water. I should also point out that till now I've alwaysed snorkelled and surfed wearing little more than a 2mm wetsuit. Some of the hardier (read crazy) locals gather Paua (abalonie) in little more than board shorts and a tee shirt!!!!

Does conditions have an effect on performance? For sure. Should there be allowances for conditions? Probably.

A point to note that as an Aeroplane Pilot a lot of training gets into working under extreme conditions, so you can fly safely in the worst case. Shouldn't diving be the same??

 

[jome]

I guess it can be agreed that in "adverse conditions" reaching same performances could take a little more time and resources (need better suit, maybe more time and experience).

I guess the question then becomes:
-Is this the responsibility of AIDA/EC or the individual instructor. Ie does AIDA offer a "compensation" or shall the instructor simply need to adapt to the different circumstances (ie maybe instead of one weekend, we need 2 weekends).

Usually the best solution is the simplest one. To keep things simple, I would start to lean towards leaving it to the instructors worry. Controlling and defining the "benefit" would simply be too vague (in my opinnion). It's worked so far for me at least (up to AIDA ***)

In this case there should also be consistency to the instructor course.

Well, that is my personal opinion anyway.

 

[samdive]

Simo - are you saying that there shouldn't be a target? the instructor just decides?

that would be difficult to police, but might be a good idea to work towards though...

i.e. the "AIDA 2 Star" cert means a student has a certain amount of knowledge, not so much that they can "definitely dive 16m".... after all, the knowledge is experience is more important than any definite depth achievement.

 

[jome]

I meant what Stavros is suggesting. The target is the same and it is up to the instructor to make what ever adjustments are needed for the student to be able to reach them.

Ie courses run in egypt and UK are different - and even if it is not "fair" for everyone, we just live with that. A course run in adverse conditions might take a day or two more for the student to get used to the conditions, but it is at the responsibility of the instructor to make up for the difference.

Where as the other option would be that AIDA try to "make up for the difference" in a form of different requirements for different conditions.

So in concrete terms what I favor is that AIDA 1-4 remain as they are and in the instructor course the special clause is removed - the requirements are the same in every conditions.

 

[fcallagy]

Kinda like Stavos and Jome said I feel up to 4 star should be a decision of the instructor if the depth achieved is near the required depth. For instructors I don't think achieving 32m should be flexible. If you are going for instructor you should be able to hit this depth not for the first time on your course but reasonably comfortably on a regular basis. (hope this comment doesn't come back to haunt me in the future). Instructors proabably should be held to an indisputable standard regardless of conditions and if the conditions are poor maybe repeat the course or that area of the course at a later date.

 

[samdive]

As I read it, Stavros and Jome are not saying the instructor should be flexible - the depth should still be achieved but would take longer in cold water, not really fair as I see it!

But - if the "adverse conditions" bit was removed from the instructor course, at least there would be consistency across the range of courses.

Which raises another question...... why does an instructor need to be super deep/long/far??? If he/she can reliably dive over and over to the depth they are teaching to, then why require any more than that? just a thought....

if you put in unnecessary demands at instructor level you are introducing lots of possibilities for claims of unfair discrimination - to those less able perhaps for medical reasons, to those diving in tougher conditioins, to women (who still do generally achieve lower PBs than men in freediving but are required to meet the same standards on all AIDA courses - should we have different standards for men and women on AIDA courses???).....
just some thoughts....

S

 

[Fondueset]

Well, I haven't gone for any sort of max depth but I've been thinking about my relative experiences as the temperature drops. I can say for sure that thermalclines when the surface temp is warm are pretty much just refreshing. The trick is to be able to relax through the shock.

A 3 mil suit is very nice to dive in. There is way less difference at depth than with a 5 - so it is both easier to go down, and easier to get up off the bottom. I've used a 3mil well into november and 10c water temps. The impact is on overall endurance - basically how long you stay in. Performance during the incipient stages of chill is generally best for me. A light suit in cold water just reduced the period of time when this is possible - while also making the up and down easier.

I have only rarely been diving in really warm water but this summer, at Hatteras, the water temp was 24-25c. I dove in a 1.5 mil suit with no hood and ,while I was still recovering from some truly radical seasickness, I noticed that 10 meters felt like about 4. My deepest dive was only about 20 meters because my float line yanked me up short as I was trying to get pictures of a sand tiger - but it was a very easy dive. So much so that I considered unclipping my float line so I could continue to pursue the shark. 20 meters is about as deep as I usually get around here due to accessibility and boat traffic. It is not a strain for me and I normally have plenty of time to find, sneak up on and photograph things down there. But the Hatteras experience was much easier. Unfortunately we had to move on to a different site at that point and there really were no further opportunities for good dives.

I attribute it to a couple of things - hypothetically at least.
1:No hood
2:Loose, thin suit allowing water circulation over the whole body
3:Salt Water. Sometimes it feels almost like you can breathe the stuff, I think there is something really different about the way it feels.

 

[Kars]

I would focus much more on the technique and the familiarity and relaxation of the student in the water. On top of that I would recomment a student should have an easy entry into the deepdiving, selecting form his, her local area the best spots and days.

Like suggested above I would rather have a longer course than to minimalise the requierments.

This because when a student goes out practicing his new hobby he is likely to face worse conditions some day and a having a margin is life saveing in changing and challenging circomstances.

Personally I've done my deepest dives (61m FIM, 57m CW) at Nordic Deep in Sweden using a 3mm suit. To overcome the cold I just did all my warm up on the shore and avoided the lost of any heat up to 5 min before Official top waering a warm jacket and cap in the boat.

Limiting the water time, and the correct physical and mental warmup may help the students to sail through challenging circomstances. This may actually a good idea to put a bit of the emphasis of the course to dealing with the local circomstances.

I think 'the numbers' are only a crude way to measure a particular level of understanding and skills.

People with a little bit of a brain understand it's not just the numbers but also the circomstaces, including personality and physical condition that determins how safe one's divebuddy is.
- Perhabs such a word of advice would help out those beginners much as wel.

Love, Courage and water!

Kars

 

[efattah]

Given that I have lots of experience diving in all waters from 3C to 30C, I can add my comments:

1. A single 'one-max' dive with no wetsuit, for someone who is conditioned, suffers no 'penalty' in cold water, in fact cold water gives an advantage to a certain point.

2. Diving with a wetsuit, a cold thermocline just below the surface gives an advantage, in my experience

3. When discussing penalties relating to different conditions, you must clearly specify if you mean repetitive dives (i.e. recreational) or one-max dives, which are a different story, since it is usually possible to do a one-max in almost any wetsuit if you have a boat and do a 1-2 minute 'warmup'

4. In 2003, I did extensive experiments tabulating the various penalties related to different wetsuit configurations. From memory, these are the penalties I tabulated (these penalties are for target depths of around 80m, with full packing):

- 8mm top + 5mm bottom, plus two heat packs under the wetsuit = 22m penalty relative to a 3mm suit

- 5mm suit: 9m penalty relative to a 3mm suit

- 5mm top, 3mm bottom: 4-5m penalty relative to a 3mm suit

These were derived from actual dives. For example, I did a 67m dive in 6C water with a (3+5)=8mm top, 5mm bottoms, and two heat packs, and the dive felt exactly like an 89m dive with a 3mm wetsuit.

Similarly, a 72m dive in a 5mm felt like an 81m dive in a 3mm. A 67m dive in a 3/5mm felt like a 71-72m dive with a 3mm.

Also note that the penalties for various wetsuits differ, based on if the diver is packing, or not packing, or FRC diving. An FRC diver generally suffers less of a penalty for a thick wetsuit, especially for middle depth dives.

 

[naiad]

For me it makes a huge difference as I can do 0m in cold water. However, if this stops me getting a qualification, I think it is fair, as it means I am not competent enough to be a safe diver in those conditions.

I managed to qualify as a PADI Scuba Diver, but not an Open Water Diver. This was because I refused to do the mask removal and replacement. I think it is fair that I am not qualified to scuba dive without an Instructor present, because I am not confident at all with several things, and the cold is one of them.

 

[apneaboy]

Most of my pb's are in cold water (including my current one) because that is where i practice. I wore a 3mm suit most of this year in Open Water in the UK and as long as you dive before you shiver it is fine. Read Eric Fattah's cold water diving article, it is great. Does anyone know a link to it i can't remember where i got it.

In terms of teaching as long as the student is given adequate thermal protection it should be enough. Don't teach in the middle of winter outside, do regular pool sessions in preperation for adequate conditions. Just give them extra sessions in open water in cold conditions over more than one day so they don't get cold. Instructors should be able to make their depth in whatever conditions, none of the instructors i have met struggled?!?.

If you start talking about temps I think tides and waves should be taken into account if you are starting to distinguish between warm and cold (presumably freshwater cold and warmwater sea) each has things to overcome. The only difference should be freshwater should be given a 3% headstart on saltwater because of density differences, other than that get on with it!!

Maybe the cards could have the country the course was completed in written on them. I know what 'UK' means on a scubies qualification. However I have recently witnessed a few divers come over from training mainly abroad and benefit from slightly the colder UK water so to be honest its swings and roundabouts. Its just a case of knowing the local problems.

Steve

p.s. this was written at the end of summer when its still warm, speak to me again in March brrrr.