How tired are you??

[Chad StClair]

Just curious how tired and gassed people feel on there dives or after words?? I have had the best intentions of working on my empty lung holds and have started doing dives on frc and training dives on rv more as of late but not to the consistency I really want because it’s easy to fall into old habits!! My full lung dives I normally do last anywhere between 1-1:20 in the 10-20 meter rang and I feel like my chest is going to explode at the end of the dives because of pressure contractions not hypoxic at all at the end of the dives and can do those dives all day long with a 1-2 min rest inbetween..At the end of the day Spearfishing like this for 4-5 hours the holds are much easier but don’t increase in time and I am tired but not exhausted by any means!! And my legs are never gassed!!

Now I am trying something different and do my shallow dives exhale 10 meters or less. The holds start at 30 second dives for the first couple then go to 1:10 and feel very comfortable the whole dive!! And a lot more peaceful and relaxed contractions and I feel like if I dive like this for a while my holds will get longer and finally get out of the 1 min rut lol The only down side is I am beat at the end of the day like dead tired and hungry for junk food like a pot head lol I know it’s because of a stronger dive response, but why such a gap between my full lung and frc for dive response been diving for 2 years for once to twice a week figured my full lung dives would get easier and longer over time but frc diving seems to be so much better for me... I have tried mixing in doing some exhale warmups but I generally feel pretty full chested after a couple dives and then the inhale dives become uncomfortable to get a peak breath!!

Am I just not getting a strong enough dive reflex on my inhale dives??? Which makes them harder and more uncomfortable with earlier contractions?? Are other peoples dive response not so extreme beteeen empty and full?? What’s your thoughts

Chad

 

[Nathan Vinski]

The extreme fatigue and hunger with FRC is normal. It would go away eventually if you were to make a full/semi perminant switch to only FRC, but your body knows that 1: you have less O2, and that each dive is slightly closer to your absolute limit.. this is very hard on the nervous system, especially when you start with it.

Personally when diving in the 10-15m range I can do easier and longer dives on FRC, because of buoyancy differences. But if I overweighted to match FRC buoyancy with full lungs, then full would be easier, just more dangerous if I was to BO over weight which is why I don't just do that.

Another thing With the full lung diving to 10-20m, again only personally, but I find this to be the most uncomfortable depth to dive at. Your lung volume is compressed to between FRC and RV, which can create a lot of tension if you aren't used to it, but at the same time there isn't really enough pressure to have great DR or significantly higher lung ppO2. When I do hangs I'll often start at 25-30m to get a dive response going and then finish off closer to my buddies at 15m. This gets me a more comfortable dive than if I did the whole thing at 15m, but I do think that the extra depth and moving around knocks off 15-30 seconds of potential time.

I've written about this on DB and FB, but something that I find helpful are lung volume pyramid tables. It doesn't seem to take a lot to get used to it.. and you can easily do...

Full lung to 1st contraction
FRC to first contraction
RV x 1 or 2 to 1st C
Frc to 1st C
Full lung to 1st contraction

Or longer target times as you get better.

The point is to get used to the lung volume changes you would experienc between 0-30m which can really help teach technical muscle relaxation, and build confidence that you can do significant dive times with low LV.

 

[cdavis]

Diving exhale is tricky and individual. I dive moderate depths, 10-25 m, warm water, minimal suit, half lung. I'm skinny, seem to have a lot of slow twitch muscle, and a strong DR. Those things all maximize the effectiveness of diving exhale. In my case, diving exhale was near miraculous in its effect on dive time. Your experiance will vary dependent on how far from the above you dive. Provided you can stay fairly close to the above, I'd certainly expect your dives to begin extending to close to 2 minutes. Diving exhale takes some getting used to and works best if you do it all the time. Tiredness will decrease with practice and how far above full exhale you dive. With the longer dive times (1:45-2:00 minutes) that diving exhale brings, I'm maybe a little more tired after a long session, but not much.

 

[Chad StClair]

Conner I just got done reading the epic post of 14 pages on frc diving and loved it!!! I am going to really work on it for the foreseeable future doing dives in the 20ish meter and under frc and deeper going to full lung.. Has doing strictly frc increased comfort and dive times in the 30 meter plus range?? I imagine it will help!! Also do you still weight neutral Buoyancy at 15’/5 meters for your deeper dives to get a good sink early?? I have been staying fairly shallow so far 33’/10 meters or less and have been diving a bit to heavy I think... how often are you diving/training to maintain good flexibility and times??? I saw on one of your posts as well that you are getting contractions on the way down at like 30 seconds?.?.? Think it was you but anyways what is your hold times just on average look like for contractions maybe 50/50?? Ultimately I would like to increase my hold times to 1:30-1:45 range with out to much discomfort which I was doing a advanced class in Hawaii and was by the end of the week my hold times were all easy in the 2 min range 45m max depth and figured I was going to come back to spearing and maintain in the 1:30-1:45 but then my times just faded back down to the 1 min range. Like Nathan said I think you just got to get used to the varied lung volumes but it’s just not for me I guess. I feel much better on a strong dive reflex dive then like Nathen was saying in that Goldie lock zone of full lung diving where your reflex just don’t kick in and you are diving what feels like dry!!

 

[Nathan Vinski]

Too add to what Conor said and give a suggestion.. to dive well on FRC you pretty much have to do a full switch. Flopping back and forth doesnt seem to work very well.. when I was doing only FRC stuff my max potential was quite high.. 50m on pure FRC but for recreational stuff I would often slightly vary my LV for deeper dives..

Like you said, do FRC at <20m and full lung for >20m in my opinion isn't the best strategy if you want to get good at exhale diving. What I would suggest is something like;

<20m at FRC.

20-30m at FRC+0.75-1.0L,

>30m FRC + 1.5-2.0L..

This way you still get the benefits of FRC, with an extra 'cushion' of air for the deeper dives, and not confusing the body too much by switch back and forth.

Eventually when you get used to it you can dive to any depth on FRC, as long as you nail your mouthfill or sequential-frenzel. I've gotten national-record hungry so I'm back on inhale, but I do slightly prefer exhale diving and am sure with enough time, and some very advanced semi-flooding EQ techniques even a WR is possible on FRC. Although, unlike Connor my body naturally suits inhale, despite being a little less enjoyable, my max is much greater with more air.

 

[Chad StClair]

Toataly get where you are coming from from on the various level of lung volumes, and I was thinking the same but didn’t say it for fear of someone jumping on and saying “well you don’t really know how much air you have if you vary it” etc.... lol.... but I figure if you dive like that and limit your depth to what feels right and is comfortable vs I can go to this depth for this time then you will always be at the best benefit for dive response and comfort in the chest and equalization.. and the deepst depth you can dive would be a full inhale....

Going from mainly diving frc at various depths Nathan to diving a full lung to max depth other than fighting the initial Buoyancy is there any other deference like, was your dive harder than if you had been doing more full lung type work, or later dive response?? Maybe earlier contractions or stronger???

 

[cdavis]

Nathans "take more air down as you get deeper" sounds right, easier equalization, deeper neutral bouyancy and less negative at depth, All good except it takes more effort to overcome positive bouyancy on deeper dives. The last pretty much goes against exhale diving theory. You really want to minimize effort on the way down. I've played with that strategy when I'm near my equalization limit, less negative at depth also makes it a lot easier to ascend.
There is some interesting stuff in articles on www.freedivewire.com about maximizing efficiency of the dive. Turns out being neutral half way down is the most theoretically efficient. Doesn't quite fit exhale diving theory.

Chad, I don't do much in the30m + range. I can't mouthfil and only get to that kind of depth when I'm diving a lot (not often) Generally, I'm neutral at 15 ft and start falling slowly at about 20-25 ft. Everything happens in slow motion, so it takes a while to get to the bottom. That eats up some of the extra time exhale gives me, but not nearly all.
Yes, I get contractions early, sometimes on the way down, but they are so small I hardly notice them until much later in the dive.
Diving often enough is out of the question for me. I train dry, intercostal stretches and diaphragm stretches most mornings. The intercostals are critical for maintaining decent depth.

I also do a simulated dive at half lung after stretching. Same breathup as diving, half breath and then move my arms and legs enough to mimic the surface dive and a couple of easy kicks. For me, its a way to monitor my diving ability. Do the same and push your times; that should increase your actual diving times.
If you did not pick up on it before, FRC is a poor descriptive tool for diving. it varies too much between divers and the conditions they dive in. For some divers, FRC is near half lung. For me its near empty. Dry, wet, heavy suit or not, make a big difference in the volume of FRC. Hell of a difference in depth ability if you can't mouthfil. Try diving about half lung.

 

[Chad StClair]

I hear you on the effort part on the way down that’s why for me I have been playing with for added safety is using a drop weight on my belt to get me down when deeper than 20 meters I have been running a few pounds heavy on my belt with a float line and buoy that I ditch and a neck weight to even out and be neutral at depth.. doing this on full lung dives down in a 5 mill suit I am using 12 lbs on my belt and 5 on my neck weight. It is easy to pull up 12 lbs and I have to kick down a bit then sink early but basically get a free ride up and added safety for not only effort but also in case of BO being Buoyant!! I have only done it on a few dives like this but seems like doing FRC dives this way would be the ticket for me because I mainly dive lazy on structure Spearfishing and would probably be able to use a bit less weight or the same and get a quicker free fall!! Btw to see this diving style in action which I stole from Nox diving on YouTube he makes awesome videos diving wrecks and has massive hold times like 3 min holds in the 50 meter range he is my hero lol

What kind of stretches you doin?? just standard freedive stretches or something specific??

 

[Nathan Vinski]

I always found the 'you never know how much air you have' argument quite lame. With proper practice, anything can be controlled quite well.

I think the fighting buoyancy problem is the main thing thats different, but it can cause lots of issues (EQ, early contractions, tension...) The reason I suggested pretty much picking one style (more when you first start trying to pick it up) is because it is a "style". FRC diving requires a totally different approach than inhale, and to learn it you kind of need to isolate it. Of course with enough experience you can start to switch between the two.

The problem lies in that, if you don;t fully commit to FRC you won't know for sure if or how well it can work for you. But if you do fully commit, you will almost certainly take a hit on you inhale diving, and need to take some time to relearn some things on inhale..

Personally, after 5 month of FRC only training Pool+depth, my inhale diving took a massive hit (initially). it took about 3 months to regain my inhale diving ability once i switched back, but overall I've benefited massively form the FRC experience (better hypoxic tolerance, much better EQ skills...) Its a weird thing to play with.. You need to have patience with learning it and committing to it, and also have patience if you decide its not for you and have to re-learn how to inhale dive.