How to 'Flow' in Freediving?

Kars, at what point (how does it feel) do you start moving? In practice, I normally start swimming at the point where contractions make me want to move more than sit still, normally that is about 45 seconds to a minute after the first urge to breathe. To put it another way, the point where contractions go from "present, but not uncomfortable" to "noticeably uncomfortable" and moving brings down the discomfort level. Do you use the same point or some other marker?

4:30 eh, nice. You got past me too easy. I think I'll try some frog.

Connor

demasoni I know what you mean exactly. although i dont use a dive watch. when i do statics wether in the pool or on the couch. if i am either looking at the time or have some one giving me minutes marker signals underwater it immediatly messes up my relaxation because either i see that im doing good and then lower my standards to "oh i dont need to push on much longer because im already doin good" or i see that im falling behind and think "oh crap ill never make it to my goal now" and then come contractions that might not have come for some time longer had i not known the time.
But its still a constant mental battle to let go of a sense of time.

any formulas to share?

Breakthrough!! Congratulations. That is REALLY impressive.

I'm going to go through all this stuff very carefully and see what I can apply next week, thanks.

I have Suunto part #S5001, "MOSQ STRAP". It looks like it consists of two D3 straps, one's a two piece and the other is a one piece, has the pins as well. How the heck do I get it to you??

Connor

Never got to the shipper today, will try tomorrow.

I did try the frog freediving. Discovered there is a bit more to it than appears. Bad day for me, too many people in the pool, trying to dive full lung, Blah Blah, etc. I was totally uncomfortable with the format. We won't talk about dive time. Only figured out later that I was way off balance without a neck weight, something I've never used. . . . . Next time.

Connor

Sure, that gives me pleasure and relaxation. Sometimes for example we walk on the bottom of the pool. But as for me I mostly prefer to do it with half of my lungs.

dannybuoy said:

Susan A. Jackson and Mihaly Csikszentmihaly have written a book called 'Flow in sport' about that subject.

Natalia Molchanova describes what she does here:

Ôðèäàéâèíã | Attention deconcentration in freediving

But it's a hard thing to find, this flow. It's undoubtedly good to train for it, but i think you should also train to go without it when it doesn't come.

Click to expand...

I wonder if the feeling is the same as when a musician or artist is in "Right Brain Mode" which is described in Betty edwards' book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. I've read it and I can tell you there are many parallels. The way Natalia explains this feeling of deconcentration would stop the negative input from the left brain and allow for the right brain to do it's job. ART or in this case Apnea.

Betty describes the self talk that a person may think of which produces poor results. "This line is crooked" "I can't draw" "This is horrible" "It's too dificult" These all come from the judgemental left brain. For the apneist the self talk may be "I must relax but I can't" "It's too loud" "I feel discomfort" also the left brain. For the right brain- everything is possible. There is no self talk. complex tasks-child's play.

Betty's books are very good if you have the chance. If you are one of those who think you can't draw, she will prove you wrong.

Just my thoughts.

Skip

blueface said:

I wonder if the feeling is the same as when a musician or artist is in "Right Brain Mode" which is described in Betty edwards' book Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain.

Click to expand...

Yes it is!
I am only an average freediver but I studied the mind quite a lot and i try to relate my experiences as a freediver with my profesional area of research. My understanding of the relationship between body and mind is constantly evolving so what i am writing here may well be different from what I would write next month but here is my take if you feel like reading it.

There is a part of the brain which is called the prefrontal cortex and that regulates the whole nervous system. The middle part of it links everything else in the brain (left and right sides). The nervous system is important for us because it does not only relay information about what is hapening inside of our body (the tensions in our muscles, our hearth rates, contractions, etc.) but it also makes the connections with the external environment, what we touch, how cold or warm it is, the feeling of the water, etc. The informaton sent by the nervous system is deposited in the right side of the brain. This is the area of feelings, emotions, peacefulness and creativity. It is also the part of the brain that, unfortunately, most people develop less. We live in a rational society that values logical reasoning so we grow up developing our left side more.

Now, one of the definitions of the mind is that it is a process that regulates the flow of energy and information. What sports psychologist are calling "the flow" is therefore, in my view, a "state of mind" where you change your relationship with yourself and the environment around you allowing your body and senses to represent reality differently.
(I beleive that you do that by using the functions of your right hemisphere and prefrontal cortex but that doesn't matter at all it's just because you asked about the right brain)

I used to coach a shooting team and the best athletes could swear that when they were in "the zone" they could see the target become bigger. I never managed it with a rifle but what I felt when I experienced "the flow" (which I truely experienced only recently) was quite similar. A perfect symbiosis (that term relates better to my experience) between my body, my mind and what ever is around because when I am in that state I no longer feel in the water, i am out of space and time, I am "here and now" and each moment becomes meaningful whether I am freefalling or making a static at 10m.

I beleive that there are different levels of that feeling and that you dont know there is a higher one until you reached it. I thought I had reached "the flow" on one of my dive in Kalamata it was similar to Reiki in many ways and it might have been one level of "flow" but after spending a week with Marco in Sharm I experienced something much much more blissful and that's what i called symbiosis.

I think that the flow is experienced by different people differently and that there are different states of flow to which one person can aspire but most importantly, the researcher in me is convinced that you can train yourself for it. In my club we do some visualisations to reconnect the left and right sides emispheres of the brain and I learned recently that regular breathing exercises can also help. However, to reach this state you need to forget about depth and you need to forget about time until you know the feeling well enough to reproduce it. This is the real challenge. Knowing why we really dive... Mindsets are extremely hard to change and I know that many of my freediving friends will never experience the flow...

Parabolic dive. You mentioned that a few times and I'm getting curios about it. Mind to share any details? Does it involve no vertical rope?
By the way, your frog flow video Is one of the coolest freediving video around, not flashy but really to the point. Thanks for sharing.

Kars said:

@ Kattie,
I would love to see an experiment where an suggestible person is hypnotised before performing a task he knows well.

Click to expand...

I've been thinking about this for a while as well. One of my favourite freediver is using a kind of conditioning/recorded suggestion messages with amazing results. I wish I could get funding to do proper research on this. Would be an amazing postdoc... If I manage to get my act together I'll send you the proposal for feedback ;-)

Kars said:

@ThomasB

It's a dream dive I want to experience in real life. In my dreams I do this in a lukewarm endless blue without any suit or line.
In real life I think I'll choose to dive and glide like Guilliaume did in "Base Jump" to a sand bed at 40 - 50m deep, with a GO Pro Equipped safety diver following. The way up will be more or less vertical. I would wear no suit, no goggles, no mask, and hopefully no noseclip either. Anything artificial would take away something from this odyssey.


Love, Courage and water,

Kars

Click to expand...

Thanks, it seems quite a nice idea. Best of luck with it and remember to show the video once done

I just saw this thread - I've been away too long from DB.. There are some things I would like to add about brain wave coherence and the experience of the flow - also called transcending during activity, but for now I'll paste a link to an incredible video of a researcher who experienced a stroke, leaving her only "experiencing" life through her right hemisphere. Look at it - it's awesome and gives a hint of our potential.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU]YouTube - How it feels to have a stroke[/ame]

Luckily we don't have to experience a stoke to have experiences of higher states of consciousness!

Adrian, thanks for posting this video. It had been a long time since I last watched it and needed remembering.

Kars said:

Hi everyone,

Kattie got me inspired to do a little test yesterday.
In the pool I took it upon me to stay with my mind in the 'feelings hemisphere', banning any rational thought accept for "get back to feeling".

And it worked, even better than anticipated.

Click to expand...

Kars, glad it worked! It's great when it happened and the only thing that matters is the 'here and now'. Once (again experimenting at OnlyOne apenea) I got into that state and was freefalling flat on my back it was awsome!! It felt like the Ocean and my body were just a kind of blanket for my mind to rest.
I would not recommend it during a comp though... well the freefalling on your back part because the flow, you really want to get it...

The challenge for the competitors amongst us and the video highlights that too, is that it means we have to train our body to do a certain number of things automatically without having to think about it. At the level I am now I have to get into that state before I leave the surface but I cannot do this if I have to think about the steps of a good duck dive... fortunately that part of the dive is automatic now but there are other moments that I need to work on until my body no longer needs me to actively think about them. One of which is turning during a dynamic.

Complete training, in my view, requires both "right" and "left" types of dives but for more experienced freedivers who no longer need to develop these automatisms all I can say is "Enjoy the flow"

release your self from the thoughts of society. The we can do, The we cants and just be no thoughts of what you want no thoughts of what you expect just feel your breathing the one thing we all do and the one thing we all can do well and just be by just being you will find your inner self and then you will be able to let you mind go you will find true relaxation and freedom just my 2 pence :martial

I recently bought a finis swimp3 player and discovered it is an amazing cheat to instant flow state--just load it up with some ambient electronic music hit play and you feel like your slowly dancing through the water, it transmits through your cheek bone not your ears and is amplified by the water, the sound drops out when you surface so you can talk to and hear your dive buddy crystal clear, it eliminates any monotony from long dyn sessions, a new favorite piece of gear for sure