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Ibiza freediving GP re-loaded
- Thread startersebastien murat
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
I read the rules, and I like them a lot. Having said that, I would make a few comments:
1. I'm uncertain why the diver needs to keep his head out of the water during the breathe-up. With no snorkel allowed, many divers may choose to use a 'survival pose' to breathe-up (face in/face out cycle)
2. The requirement to look the judge in the eye becomes difficult or impossible for divers with -6D or worse myopia
3. In my humble opinion this competition is going to be impossibly close in terms of the error margins. The entire competition will rely upon the accuracy of the depth gauges. I firmly believe that the margin of victory will be smaller than the error margin of the computer. I would choose a computer which compensates for daily atmospheric pressure variations (up to 0.3m error), as well as compensates for the high salinity of the red sea (0.5% error). Further, a very high sampling rate would be required (several samples per second).
Given that adequate computers may not be available or affordable to the organizers, then some other rule would have to be invoked to make up for the computer errors. One such rule would read as follows:
- A competitor is considered to have outperformed a rival if his error margin is 1% less than his rival, or greater. If his error margin is within 1% of his rival, then the two divers are considered as having tied.
Example:
Diver #1 has error margin 2.7%
Diver #2 has error margin 3.1%
This would be considered a tie, since the margin between the two athletes is smaller than the error in the computer, thus the computer cannot deterministically resolve who actually had the more accurate performance.
As a manufacturer of dive computers, I would say that a computer with a 1-second sampling rate, which does not compensate for atmospheric pressure or salinity, would have an error of +/- 1m or +/- 1.5%, whichever is greater. This means that shallow dives have the greatest error for the computer:
15m +/- 1.0m = 6.66% error
Although the computer manufacturer often claims a +/- 1% accuracy, this assumes:
1. Salinity of the ocean is at the world average
2. Atmospheric pressure is the world average
3. Computer is brand new (no drift in the pressure sensor)
4. Depth gauge is stable at the target depth for several seconds
#4 in particular, related to sampling rate, is liable to create a large error, although the rules do state that the gauge is placed on the upper arm, which will somewhat reduce the error due to the sampling rate.
Attempting to manually re-calibrate computers presents a huge challenge and doesn't compensate for all of the factors. In particular, re-calibration requires a perfectly measured, perfectly vertical descent line and a calm sea. It does not compensate for atmospheric pressure variations, hysteresis or sampling rate errors.
1. I'm uncertain why the diver needs to keep his head out of the water during the breathe-up. With no snorkel allowed, many divers may choose to use a 'survival pose' to breathe-up (face in/face out cycle)
2. The requirement to look the judge in the eye becomes difficult or impossible for divers with -6D or worse myopia
3. In my humble opinion this competition is going to be impossibly close in terms of the error margins. The entire competition will rely upon the accuracy of the depth gauges. I firmly believe that the margin of victory will be smaller than the error margin of the computer. I would choose a computer which compensates for daily atmospheric pressure variations (up to 0.3m error), as well as compensates for the high salinity of the red sea (0.5% error). Further, a very high sampling rate would be required (several samples per second).
Given that adequate computers may not be available or affordable to the organizers, then some other rule would have to be invoked to make up for the computer errors. One such rule would read as follows:
- A competitor is considered to have outperformed a rival if his error margin is 1% less than his rival, or greater. If his error margin is within 1% of his rival, then the two divers are considered as having tied.
Example:
Diver #1 has error margin 2.7%
Diver #2 has error margin 3.1%
This would be considered a tie, since the margin between the two athletes is smaller than the error in the computer, thus the computer cannot deterministically resolve who actually had the more accurate performance.
As a manufacturer of dive computers, I would say that a computer with a 1-second sampling rate, which does not compensate for atmospheric pressure or salinity, would have an error of +/- 1m or +/- 1.5%, whichever is greater. This means that shallow dives have the greatest error for the computer:
15m +/- 1.0m = 6.66% error
Although the computer manufacturer often claims a +/- 1% accuracy, this assumes:
1. Salinity of the ocean is at the world average
2. Atmospheric pressure is the world average
3. Computer is brand new (no drift in the pressure sensor)
4. Depth gauge is stable at the target depth for several seconds
#4 in particular, related to sampling rate, is liable to create a large error, although the rules do state that the gauge is placed on the upper arm, which will somewhat reduce the error due to the sampling rate.
Attempting to manually re-calibrate computers presents a huge challenge and doesn't compensate for all of the factors. In particular, re-calibration requires a perfectly measured, perfectly vertical descent line and a calm sea. It does not compensate for atmospheric pressure variations, hysteresis or sampling rate errors.
Fattah,
I guess they all will be diving with the very same computers.
(they will wear two computers)
/B
I guess they all will be diving with the very same computers.
(they will wear two computers)
/B
Hi Trux,
being Greek (and the current CNF NR holder :t ) I would like to raise a couple points:
For reasons of historic accuracy I would like to point out that Danae Varveri did a 39,(something) dive wearing a mask and swimsuit that resulted in a HUGE black out :rcard and a rescue by Panos (also a DB member) - this was announced as a successful World record by Danae's coach
(and if it is in the news it is bound to be the truth right?). This was immediately disputed by AIDA Greece which was present at the attempt :naughty (judges and members of AIDA Greece board were there of their own choice as they were not invited to ratify the record).Diving in the Constant Weights No-Fins category is becoming more popular in Greece with several athletes considering it their primary dicipline. CNF will be the second dicipline in the "2007 format" Greek summer games (CWT and CNF only - no pool - this event will be announced soon together with the rest of the AIDA Hellas competition calendar).
I will post Sebastian's announcement of the GP in the AIDA Hellas website and I will also announce it during the next AIDA Greece seminar (which is next Wednesday) One problem I see with Greek participation is that the Spring Pool Games (which is the main qualifying event for the Slovenia AIDA WC) is scheduled for May 20th which is putting a lot of strain on athletes wanting to do both events.
Cheers Stavros
Thanks for you input Bill, Trux, Stavros and of course Eric.
A couple of things:
Firstly, due to unforseen circumstances the comp is being postponed by one week, i.e., 25-27 May to 1-3 of June.
After lengthy discussions with Bill Stromberg, head of AIDA, its been decided that The Ibiza Freediving GP will be a split comp., with the first day being a strictly AIDA constant ballast no fins contest with a cash prize and the second day a pure freediving contest, also with a cash prize, thus benefiting a greater number of would be participants. I am presently in the process of ammending the rules to allow for these changes, which will be out in a day or so at the latest.
All this deson't affect either the prize-purse of US$5,000 cash or the registration fee. Furthermore, it means that contestants may now obtain an AIDA Ranking, possibility for selection for AIDA World Deep-Freediving World Championships in Egypt, Oct/Nov. 2007.
Freediving clinics will still run, but these will be rescheduled one week back.
In regards to the pure freediving event, and some insightful discussions with Bill, this event will still be the real deal with possibly only two concession, a nose-plug and swim trunks for males and one-piece for females, of course. By the way, the pursit event is being filmed for Eurosport.
Eric, point taken on depth measurements.
Cheers
Seb
A couple of things:
Firstly, due to unforseen circumstances the comp is being postponed by one week, i.e., 25-27 May to 1-3 of June.
After lengthy discussions with Bill Stromberg, head of AIDA, its been decided that The Ibiza Freediving GP will be a split comp., with the first day being a strictly AIDA constant ballast no fins contest with a cash prize and the second day a pure freediving contest, also with a cash prize, thus benefiting a greater number of would be participants. I am presently in the process of ammending the rules to allow for these changes, which will be out in a day or so at the latest.
All this deson't affect either the prize-purse of US$5,000 cash or the registration fee. Furthermore, it means that contestants may now obtain an AIDA Ranking, possibility for selection for AIDA World Deep-Freediving World Championships in Egypt, Oct/Nov. 2007.
Freediving clinics will still run, but these will be rescheduled one week back.
In regards to the pure freediving event, and some insightful discussions with Bill, this event will still be the real deal with possibly only two concession, a nose-plug and swim trunks for males and one-piece for females, of course. By the way, the pursit event is being filmed for Eurosport.
Eric, point taken on depth measurements.
Cheers
Seb
Well, this is getting little bit off-topic for this thread (though it still speaks about the purist idea of freediving), so moderators may consider moving it to a separate thread, but since we began it here, I reply here too:
Thank you for the details, Stavros. Hmm, that's strange. I know the story was filmed by Alki David (and changed) in the movie The Freediver (Danaë died in the movie, while in the real life she is still living and even diving AFAIK), but am surprised that all available sources describe the record as a real one. Well, WikiPedia is not always accurate, and you can edit (and should consider editing) [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danai_Varveri"]the entry about Danaë Varveri[/ame] where they claim:
But more surprising is the entry on BIOS' own website that claims the following on the "fame" page (at the bottom):
And on this page Danaë is being quoted after another (35m) dive
So it looks like she was used to dive at least to 35m without a mask - I wonder why would she take a mask for the 40m record? Were you there too and did you see the accident personally? Are you sure there were not two different record attempts? The page about Danaë at Apnea.nl seems to suggest that the accident (used in the movie) happened at a 35m attempt in 1999, while she did other records later (they mention only a 37m record at the 1st Kalymnos festival). Here too, they tell she dove without a mask.
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Hi Trux,
I think this discussion belongs in a separate thread so if admins think so too please move these posts (thank u)
I have read some of the things written on the web (BIOS webpage etc) about Danae's Dives. What I know is the following:
Danae's World Record dive to 39,(something) was filmed by AIDA Greece board members and AIDA Int Judges (Bill Zonomesis and Nikolaos Koubaras) and safetied by Panos Lianos (the current AIDA Int VP Europe). She surfaced with a BO and sunk - Panos held her after she sunk - this is on tape in the AIDA Greece Archives. AIDA Greece was not invited to the event to ratify the event but the above mentioned people volunteered to go there to ensure safety of the event as AIDA Gr feared that inadecuate safety meassures would be in place. The first time Danae asked for AIDA to ratify one of her record attempts was in 2005 when she attempted to go for 27m in CNF - she BOed again...the next day she tried for a dive at 20m which she got right and set the first CNF Women's Nat record. The record has since been taken to 38m by Natasa Fragouli a very good (and very real) freediver. Danae has never competed in National or other level AIDA (or other) freediving competitions and I do not predict we ' ll be seeing her again.
I am afraid what we read on the web is not always true and this is a case where info needs to be cross - referenced with REAL and TRUSTWORTHY sources - like the AIDA Archives... you'll find Danae is nowhere to be found...
What's my point? It is very easy for anybody to set any short of National / World / Galactic Freediving Record if there is no-one there but their coach and friends to witness it... heck if we go this way I set a couple of National and World records last week and I am sure trux with such a set-up you can set a few before dinner today.
Cheers Stav..
PS. I think that is enough about Danae and we should go back to caring about REAL FREEDIVING - I think the new format of the Ibiza GP is quite a bit more attractive - hmmm lets see.
I think this discussion belongs in a separate thread so if admins think so too please move these posts
(thank u)I have read some of the things written on the web (BIOS webpage etc) about Danae's Dives. What I know is the following:
Danae's World Record dive to 39,(something) was filmed by AIDA Greece board members and AIDA Int Judges (Bill Zonomesis and Nikolaos Koubaras) and safetied by Panos Lianos (the current AIDA Int VP Europe). She surfaced with a BO and sunk - Panos held her after she sunk - this is on tape in the AIDA Greece Archives. AIDA Greece was not invited to the event to ratify the event but the above mentioned people volunteered to go there to ensure safety of the event as AIDA Gr feared that inadecuate safety meassures would be in place. The first time Danae asked for AIDA to ratify one of her record attempts was in 2005 when she attempted to go for 27m in CNF - she BOed again...the next day she tried for a dive at 20m which she got right and set the first CNF Women's Nat record. The record has since been taken to 38m by Natasa Fragouli a very good (and very real) freediver. Danae has never competed in National or other level AIDA (or other) freediving competitions and I do not predict we ' ll be seeing her again.
I am afraid what we read on the web is not always true and this is a case where info needs to be cross - referenced with REAL and TRUSTWORTHY sources - like the AIDA Archives... you'll find Danae is nowhere to be found...
What's my point? It is very easy for anybody to set any short of National / World / Galactic Freediving Record if there is no-one there but their coach and friends to witness it... heck if we go this way I set a couple of National and World records last week and I am sure trux with such a set-up you can set a few before dinner today.
Cheers Stav..
PS. I think that is enough about Danae and we should go back to caring about REAL FREEDIVING - I think the new format of the Ibiza GP is quite a bit more attractive - hmmm lets see.
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http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/cnfgrandprix.html
The Ibiza GP is evolving. 2 competitions: one pure and one Aida.
In one of them you can win 2000 USD by just diving to 16 meters!
SebastiAn
Sweden
The Ibiza GP is evolving. 2 competitions: one pure and one Aida.
In one of them you can win 2000 USD by just diving to 16 meters!
SebastiAn
Sweden
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Just a couple of questions to the rules as listed in the official PDF:
The formulation is not quite apparent, but I suppose that this just means the freedivers cannot jump from the platform to start the dive, but rather has to be already in the water. I guess it does not mean he has to be there during all the 20' dedicated to the preparation, or does it? And I also do not think that it means that he has to be totally immersed before starting the dive, as it may sound.
Does it mean that if two divers announce 15m, one performs 17m, and the other one 14.9m, the second diver is disqulified (not reaching the minimum performance), and the first one wins? It sounds so. Maybe the minimal performance should be set differently than the minimal nominative depth of 15m.
What about deciding by the nominated depth in such case? For example first diver announces 20m, dives to 21.1m; the other one announces 30m, dives to 30.9m - according your rules they would be tied (both within 1m +/- 1% of AP). I'd suggest that the one with the higher AP (30m) wins. Well, it is true that on one side the 1% margin is bigger at that depth, but on the other hand I believe that the bigger depth should be rewarded somehow.
I am not sure if I understand this one - does it mean that each competitor may dive at least ones + another retrial attempt? Does it mean that he/she may be allowed to dive even many more times? Who decides how many times he/she can dive? If multiple attempts are permitted, what is the time frame for them? What is the preparation time limit allowed for each of them?
I wrote "I'd suggest that the one with the higher AP (30m) wins.", but actually I meant the one with deeper performance wins. Otherwise the following case could happen: 1st diver announces 20m, dives 26.1m. 2nd diver announces 30m, but dives 23.9m - both are within 6m +/- 1% of AP, so according to the current rules tied. In this case I would not propose the second diver with the higher AP to be the winner, but rather the one going deeper with the same depth error (+/- the tolerance).
In contrary, if they dived to 25.1m and 24.9m respectively, I would indeed consider it equal error, because both the difference of diver error (5m +/- 1% of AP), and their actual perfomance depth difference (0.2m <= 1% of AP) are within the tolerance range of 1%.
In contrary, if they dived to 25.1m and 24.9m respectively, I would indeed consider it equal error, because both the difference of diver error (5m +/- 1% of AP), and their actual perfomance depth difference (0.2m <= 1% of AP) are within the tolerance range of 1%.
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Right...no jumping allowed.
Immersed not = to submersed
Immersed => up-to-the-neck
If I reward the deeper depths than it isn't a level playing field anymore and the guys who can dive deeper have the edge.
Rule 11.2: We start early and if we have a modest number of competitors then we can dive both morning and afternoon. This will most likely be the case
Immersed not = to submersed
Immersed => up-to-the-neck
If I reward the deeper depths than it isn't a level playing field anymore and the guys who can dive deeper have the edge.
Rule 11.2: We start early and if we have a modest number of competitors then we can dive both morning and afternoon. This will most likely be the case
I did not mean rewarding deeper dives. I meant using the depth do decide in case of a tie - two or more divers coming within the same distance from their respective targets. Taking in count the tolerance, I think the probability of a tie is rather high, so it might be better having a rule reducing the possibility as much as possible, without decreasing the tolerance (which on my mind is possibly still smaller than the measurment errors).
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A dive-off would be better....time permitting, but that possibly not being the case I take your point, i.e., make it all clear-cut with little room for polemics. I'll give it some thought since there scope for evolution, no doubt.
Seb
Seb
I'm still very confused and concerned about the rule about coming short of the announced depth.
If a diver announces 30m and reaches 29.9m, he is disqualified? Another diver who announces 30m and does 50m wins over the 29.9m diver....?
Can you please explain the concept behind this rule? If it is true, then the contest becomes more of 'who is willing to take the greatest risk and cut it as close as possible...' Further it also introduces disqualification by the dive computer sampling rate. Two divers may both dive to exactly 30.2m, but one may get lucky with the sampling rate and have a sample at 30.2m, while the other gets unlucky and gets a sample at 29.9m, disqualifying him.
If any DQ is absolutely necessary, then I would say that coming short of your target by 15% (or 20%) or more is a DQ. This makes shallow dives more risky than deep dives, since 15m x .15 = 2.25m, but 30m x .15 = 4.5m.
If a diver announces 30m and reaches 29.9m, he is disqualified? Another diver who announces 30m and does 50m wins over the 29.9m diver....?
Can you please explain the concept behind this rule? If it is true, then the contest becomes more of 'who is willing to take the greatest risk and cut it as close as possible...' Further it also introduces disqualification by the dive computer sampling rate. Two divers may both dive to exactly 30.2m, but one may get lucky with the sampling rate and have a sample at 30.2m, while the other gets unlucky and gets a sample at 29.9m, disqualifying him.
If any DQ is absolutely necessary, then I would say that coming short of your target by 15% (or 20%) or more is a DQ. This makes shallow dives more risky than deep dives, since 15m x .15 = 2.25m, but 30m x .15 = 4.5m.
Eric, I guess you refer to these rules:
As far as I understand them, there is no problem if you announce 30m and do 29.9. You win over the diver announcing 30m and doing 50m. You only need to reach the minimal depth, that is set to 15m. so if you dive to 14.9, the 50m freediver wins, in spite of you being closer to the target depth.
I addressed it in one of my posts above too, and proposed that the minimal performance depth is set differently (lower) that the minimal announced depth (15m), otherwise you inded risk having two freedivers announcing 15m, one diving to 14.9m, and the other diving to 30m, misses the target by 15m, but wins.
The Ibiza Grand prix 1st of june will need alot more registrations to go ahead. I registered as soon as I heard about the comp. I thought this was a marvelous idea. Specially the opportunity to win lots of prizemoney. And together with an ordinary Aida competition I thought this would attract athletes, specially since it was played out on an acessible island.
Does anyone have any clues to why this comp does not attracct more interest?
Sebastian
the ultimate comnpetition
Does anyone have any clues to why this comp does not attracct more interest?
Sebastian
the ultimate comnpetition
At FreediveCentral: Freedivers on The Ibiza Freediving Grand-Prix :: Freedive Central but I do not know if everyone goes through it